Why on earth would Irenaeus have knowledge of ancient scholarship on Aristotle? Seems rather erudite.Again, as to the desire they [the Valentinians] exhibit to refer this whole universe to numbers, they have learned it from the Pythagoreans. For these were the first who set forth numbers as the initial principle of all things, and [described] that initial principle of theirs as being both equal and unequal, out of which [two properties] they conceived that both things sensible(3) and immaterial derived their origin. And [they held] that one set of first principles gave rise to the matter [of things], and another to their form. They affirm that from these first principles all things have been made, just as a statue is of its metal and its special form.1 Now, the heretics have adapted this to the things which are outside of the Pleroma.
1. Note the standard scholastic Aristotelian example and terminology. I assume that Irenaeus' account somehow echoes Arist. Met. A 5.986al5 ff. (for such Aristotelian echoes see also infra, n. 46, n. 48), who says that according to the Pythagoreans number is both the matter for things and what informs their modifications and conditions. https://books.google.com/books?id=8YiHq ... IQ6AEIKTAA
Aristotelian Terminology in Irenaeus
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Aristotelian Terminology in Irenaeus
Here is an example of Irenaeus Using Aristotelian terminology to explain kabbalah:
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Re: Aristotelian Terminology in Irenaeus
Nice observation. Very 4th century.
“’That was excellently observed’, say I, when I read a passage in an author, where his opinion agrees with mine. When we differ, there I pronounce him to be mistaken.” - Jonathan Swift
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Re: Aristotelian Terminology in Irenaeus
Not sure when it dates the material to. I would be interested in knowing whether Aristotle ever had a position within pagan Rome that he did in Medieval Christianity - that is approaching something of an orthodoxy.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
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Re: Aristotelian Terminology in Irenaeus
So do you think that Adversus Haereses is itself a kind of doxographia? When you think about it the various Christian sects are equated with the various philosophical sects that always existed. It's sort of a reworking of an old model. Also given the manner in which Theophrastus and Aristotelianism tended to 'categorize' things or group all like things in tomes of this sort is it fair to say that the very model of a doxographia is Aristotelian?
BTW you've given us/me two of your best posts in a whole Andrew. Very thankful you participate here - as always.
BTW you've given us/me two of your best posts in a whole Andrew. Very thankful you participate here - as always.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
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Re: Aristotelian Terminology in Irenaeus
On the idea of Irenaeus writing Against Heresies as a(n Aristotelian) doxographia:
On Irenaeus using doxographia:If the doxographic information he deploys in Against Heresies 2.14 is a proper clue to the extent of his acquaintance with the philosophical tradition, he did not graduate to any serious study of that subject; but he seems to have been a systematic reader of earlier Christian writers (not excluding some of his opponents), and through them he seems to have absorbed and mastered concepts that were current in his day in cultured discussions of God, the human constitution, and the like. https://www.google.com/search?tbm=bks&h ... bsorbed%22
Again I ask, isn't there something inherently Aristotelian (or Theophrastian) about compiling a catalog of Christian 'sects'?Quoting parts of Plato's Laws 4.715e–716a and Tim. 29e, probably , probably found in a doxographic work, Irenaeus states that Plato appears to be more pious than the gnostic heretics (3.25.5).https://www.google.com/search?tbm=bks&h ... im.+29e%22
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
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Re: Aristotelian Terminology in Irenaeus
van Unnik on Irenaeus's use of doxographia https://books.google.com/books?id=hkfwJ ... 22&f=false
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
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Re: Aristotelian Terminology in Irenaeus
One should probably compare Irenaeus to Hippolytus Against all Heresies where the drawing of parallels between Christian heretics and Greek philosophers is much more thoroughgoing.
Andrew Criddle
Andrew Criddle
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Re: Aristotelian Terminology in Irenaeus
But I guess I was trying to say that the very idea of compiling a catalog of species might be inherently Aristotelian or Theophrastian.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
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Re: Aristotelian Terminology in Irenaeus
Compiling a list of Christian sects or heresies seems to go back to Justin Martyr who explicitly compared Christian heresies to Philosophical schools.
Dialogue with Trypho
Dialogue with Trypho
Andrew CriddleThere are, therefore, and there were many, my friends, who, coming forward in the name of Jesus, taught both to speak and act impious and blasphemous things; and these are called by us after the name of the men from whom each doctrine and opinion had its origin. (For some in one way, others in another, teach to blaspheme the Maker of all things, and Christ, who was foretold by Him as coming, and the God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, with whom we have nothing in common, since we know them to be atheists, impious, unrighteous, and sinful, and confessors of Jesus in name only, instead of worshippers of Him. Yet they style themselves Christians, just as certain among the Gentiles inscribe the name of God upon the works of their own hands, and partake in nefarious and impious rites.) Some are called Marcians, and some Valentinians, and some Basilidians, and some Saturnilians, and others by other names; each called after the originator of the individual opinion, just as each one of those who consider themselves philosophers, as I said before, thinks he must bear the name of the philosophy which he follows, from the name of the father of the particular doctrine.