Aristotelian Terminology in Irenaeus

[Ben C. Smith]

Compiling a list of Christian sects or heresies seems to go back to Justin Martyr who explicitly compared Christian heresies to Philosophical schools.
Dialogue with Trypho

There are, therefore, and there were many, my friends, who, coming forward in the name of Jesus, taught both to speak and act impious and blasphemous things; and these are called by us after the name of the men from whom each doctrine and opinion had its origin. (For some in one way, others in another, teach to blaspheme the Maker of all things, and Christ, who was foretold by Him as coming, and the God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, with whom we have nothing in common, since we know them to be atheists, impious, unrighteous, and sinful, and confessors of Jesus in name only, instead of worshippers of Him. Yet they style themselves Christians, just as certain among the Gentiles inscribe the name of God upon the works of their own hands, and partake in nefarious and impious rites.) Some are called Marcians, and some Valentinians, and some Basilidians, and some Saturnilians, and others by other names; each called after the originator of the individual opinion, just as each one of those who consider themselves philosophers, as I said before, thinks he must bear the name of the philosophy which he follows, from the name of the father of the particular doctrine.

Do you think this practice may have arisen from that of listing Jewish sects, like Josephus does, and like Hegesippus later does?

[andrewcriddle]

Compiling a list of Christian sects or heresies seems to go back to Justin Martyr who explicitly compared Christian heresies to Philosophical schools.
Dialogue with Trypho

There are, therefore, and there were many, my friends, who, coming forward in the name of Jesus, taught both to speak and act impious and blasphemous things; and these are called by us after the name of the men from whom each doctrine and opinion had its origin. (For some in one way, others in another, teach to blaspheme the Maker of all things, and Christ, who was foretold by Him as coming, and the God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, with whom we have nothing in common, since we know them to be atheists, impious, unrighteous, and sinful, and confessors of Jesus in name only, instead of worshippers of Him. Yet they style themselves Christians, just as certain among the Gentiles inscribe the name of God upon the works of their own hands, and partake in nefarious and impious rites.) Some are called Marcians, and some Valentinians, and some Basilidians, and some Saturnilians, and others by other names; each called after the originator of the individual opinion, just as each one of those who consider themselves philosophers, as I said before, thinks he must bear the name of the philosophy which he follows, from the name of the father of the particular doctrine.

Do you think this practice may have arisen from that of listing Jewish sects, like Josephus does, and like Hegesippus later does?

I think an interest in cataloguing Greek philosophical schools developed in the 1st century CE. Josephus, Hegesippus et al are influenced by this trend.

Andrew Criddle

[Ben C. Smith]

Compiling a list of Christian sects or heresies seems to go back to Justin Martyr who explicitly compared Christian heresies to Philosophical schools.
Dialogue with Trypho

There are, therefore, and there were many, my friends, who, coming forward in the name of Jesus, taught both to speak and act impious and blasphemous things; and these are called by us after the name of the men from whom each doctrine and opinion had its origin. (For some in one way, others in another, teach to blaspheme the Maker of all things, and Christ, who was foretold by Him as coming, and the God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, with whom we have nothing in common, since we know them to be atheists, impious, unrighteous, and sinful, and confessors of Jesus in name only, instead of worshippers of Him. Yet they style themselves Christians, just as certain among the Gentiles inscribe the name of God upon the works of their own hands, and partake in nefarious and impious rites.) Some are called Marcians, and some Valentinians, and some Basilidians, and some Saturnilians, and others by other names; each called after the originator of the individual opinion, just as each one of those who consider themselves philosophers, as I said before, thinks he must bear the name of the philosophy which he follows, from the name of the father of the particular doctrine.

Do you think this practice may have arisen from that of listing Jewish sects, like Josephus does, and like Hegesippus later does?

I think an interest in cataloguing Greek philosophical schools developed in the 1st century CE. Josephus, Hegesippus et al are influenced by this trend.

Make sense. Thanks.

[Secret Alias]

But Irenaeus had control of the Justin corpus. As conservative a scholar as Evans think that the Dialogue was altered by an editor c. 195 CE. I am not sure we should be so naive as to suppose that 'what Justin said' = 'what the MS of Justin now says.'

[MrMacSon]

But Irenaeus had control of the Justin corpus. As conservative a scholar as Evans think that the Dialogue was altered by an editor c. 195 CE. I am not sure we should be so naive as to suppose that 'what Justin said' = 'what the MS of Justin now says.'
.

I'm with Stephan, and, going further, I think the Marcians, the Valentinians, the Basilidians, and Saturnilians, and 'others by other names' would have been later than Justin Martyr, and, with the Dialogue saying -

".. each called after the originator of the individual opinion ... from the name of the father of the particular doctrine."

- the originator-father would or could have been contemporary with Martyr. Marcion would have been, and I'm not sure the others are as early as we are led to believe.

[Secret Alias]

I am merely saying that there are similarities between Justin's list, the language and Hegesippus's list, language. I don't think this is by accident.

καί εἰσιν αὐτῶν οἱ μέν τινες καλούμενοι Μαρκιανοί, οἱ δὲ Οὐαλεντινιανοί, οἱ δὲ Βασιλειδιανοί, οἱ δὲ Σατορνιλιανοί, καὶ ἄλλοι ἄλλῳ ὀνόματι, ἀπὸ τοῦ ἀρχηγέτου τῆς γνώμης ἕκαστος ὀνομαζόμενος, ὃν τρόπον καὶ ἕκαστος τῶν φιλοσοφεῖν νομιζόντων, ὡς ἐν ἀρχῇ προεῖπον, ἀπὸ τοῦ πατρὸς τοῦ λόγου τὸ ὄνομα ἧς φιλοσοφεῖ φιλοσοφίας ἡγεῖται φέρειν. (Justin)

απο τουτων Μενανδριανισται, και Μαρκιωνισται, και Καρποκρατιανοι, και Ουαλεντινιανοι, και Βασιλειδιανοι, και Σατορνιλιανοι, εκαστος ιδιως και ετερως ιδιαν δοξαν παρεισηγαγησαν. (Hegesippus)

Clearly the heretics did not uniformly call themselves by this Latinized Greek methodology. Someone is copying someone and the original source may not even be known.

[MrMacSon]

I am merely saying that there are similarities between Justin's list, the language and Hegesippus's list, language. I don't think this is by accident.

Sure. I have edited and added to my previous post to make it clear my point was 'going further' than your point.

Clearly the heretics did not uniformly call themselves by this Latinized Greek methodology ...

And, to go further again (and to sound like a broken record to some/most), I will say I think heretics is a retrospective label.

I think the Valentinians, the Basilidians, the Saturnilians, and the Marcians are likely to have preceded Christian orthodoxy, and that is likely to have increasing validity if the proposals of Vinzent, Klinghardt, Tyson, and Beduhn - that the synoptic gospels started with Marcion or were post-Marcion - are increasingly supported (and if it is determined that the Pauline texts and John were first written in the early to mid 2nd century).

[Secret Alias]

I still go back to the idea that the manufacture of these names using the ιανοί suffix is the key to solving this mystery.

[MrMacSon]

... the ιανοί suffix is the key to solving this mystery.

For 'ιανοί' Google Translate gives 'gentlemen'.

[DCHindley]

... the ιανοί suffix is the key to solving this mystery.

For 'ιανοί' Google Translate gives 'gentlemen'.

Well, Google translate gives one the *modern* Greek meaning, not the ancient Greek one. Modern Greek is as far from Koine as Middle English is from modern.

DCH