A Christian eschatological pattern in two steps.

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Ben C. Smith
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Re: A Christian eschatological pattern in two steps.

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Secret Alias wrote: Fri Apr 27, 2018 3:40 pm I like that actual religious people or even 'normal people' can't fathom what it is that we do here. My wife doesn't understand it either. My son thinks we 'criticize' the Bible - so we spend all day cursing and thinking up ways to disprove the Bible (which for some isn't far off the mark). But for soberxp he naturally (natural to him I guess) assumes that as a religious forum we should be receptive to his supernatural experience and like him we are all undergoing visionary encounters with angels and gods. If only life was that interesting
What are you talking about? All of my posts on this forum are dictated to me in my dreams by the archangel Raphael. I assumed yours were of a similar character. ;)
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Re: A Christian eschatological pattern in two steps.

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Ben C. Smith wrote: Fri Apr 27, 2018 2:46 pm
soberxp wrote: Fri Apr 27, 2018 2:08 pmTry thinking like this
Trying... trying....
i mean every Separate timeline for everyone ,that is everyone's last time(before physical death) to/in the world . i don't believe in eschatological .

BTW,as i knew the second coming .People preach the second coming ,lord Jesus has coming to me , to the others ,so many people on the ground , i can not send everyone an e-mail message to let them know the news . so i post my supernatural experience here and there . and I didn't know why god chosen me, why not these who preach the second coming. maybe jesus will coming again , i don't know . I have read all kinds Religious books .None of them can replace Bible 。
Last edited by soberxp on Sat Apr 28, 2018 6:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: A Christian eschatological pattern in two steps.

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Secret Alias wrote: Fri Apr 27, 2018 3:40 pm I like that actual religious people or even 'normal people' can't fathom what it is that we do here. My wife doesn't understand it either. My son thinks we 'criticize' the Bible - so we spend all day cursing and thinking up ways to disprove the Bible (which for some isn't far off the mark). But for soberxp he naturally (natural to him I guess) assumes that as a religious forum we should be receptive to his supernatural experience and like him we are all undergoing visionary encounters with angels and gods. If only life was that interesting
I didn't think you are 'criticize' the Bible . I was thought here a religious forum , so what's the different between religious forum and this forum ? all talking about bible . :cheeky:
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Re: A Christian eschatological pattern in two steps.

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Ben C. Smith wrote: Fri Apr 27, 2018 1:21 pm
Third, your third point above (c) is part of those famous issues in verses 9-10. Being awake versus asleep is, in these two verses, either a metaphor for being alive versus being dead, exactly as it is in the first half of the entire passage in question, or it is a metaphor for being morally alert versus morally not alert, exactly as it is in the second half.
For a further analysis of the awake/asleep phrase in verse 9-10 I will confine myself to paragraph 5:1-11. In your ‘Christian responses to imperial propaganda’ thread you rightly mention 5:3 as referring to Roman imperial propaganda. When verse 4 says ‘you are not in darkness’, this phrase implicitly says that it is the Romans who are in darkness, and so verses 4-8 can be understood in the light of Roman-Jewish (more particularly Roman-Essene) opposition.
The light/darkness dualism brings us straightforward to the War Scroll (1QM) which describes the ultimate war between the Essenes and the Kittim, the Romans. Except for the sober/drunk metaphor Paul’s reasoning in verse 2-8 seems to be fully dependent on 1QM I:9-12

1QM I:9-12
On the day when the Kittim fall, there shall be battle and terrible carnage before the God of Israel, for that shall be the day appointed from ancient times for the battle of destruction of the sons of darkness. At that time, the assembly of gods and the hosts of men shall battle, causing great carnage; on the day of calamity, the sons of light shall battle with the company of darkness amid the shouts of a mighty multitude and the clamour of gods and men to (make manifest) the might of God. And it shall be a time of [great] tribulation for the people which God shall redeem; of all its afflictions none shall be as this, form its sudden beginning until its end in eternal redemption.

We can discern different corresponding elements (my bold and underlining):

------------- 1 Thessalonians 5:2-8 ------------ -------------------------------- 1QM I:9-12-------------------------------
Day of the Lord On that day when the Kittim fall (…) before the God of Israel...
That shall be the day appointed from ancient times
At that time
The day of calamity
Thief in the night
Sudden (destruction)
Surprise you like a thief
Sudden beginning
Sons of light Sons of light
The people which God shall redeem
You are not in darkness
We are not of the night or of darkness
Sons of darkness
(Sudden) destruction will come upon them Battle of destruction of the sons of darkness

The correspondence in ideas and even in wording is striking. The ‘sons of light’ in 1QM seem to be identical to ‘the people which God shall redeem’, so a conflict between two nations is described. The awake/asleep opposition is derived from the sons of light/sons of darkness opposition, so this metaphor is not about moral alertness but about being ready for the clash for world dominion with the Romans, and for victory (described here as salvation), while the Romans, the sons of darkness, do not see the impending catastrophe approaching.
If those who are awake are the Essenes and those who are asleep the Romans, and if the interpolator knows this connotation (which is not unlikely), then in verse 10 he says ‘it doesn’t matter whether you are Roman or Essene’. The interpolation in verse 9-10 may date from a time when it was desirable to counter the subversive anti-Roman tenor of the Pauline letters. See also Romans 13:1-7.

P.S. Elsewhere in column I of 1QM we find a sentence that may be the inspiration of Paul’s mission throughout the Roman empire: [The sons of righteous]ness shall shine over all the ends of the earth; they shall go on shining until all the seasons of darkness are consumed and, at the season appointed by God, His exalted greatness shall shine eternally to the peace, blessing, glory, joy, and long life of all the sons of light.

In other words: Paul sees himself as a son of righteousness whose mission is to let shine ‘over all the ends of the earth’ the good news of the victory of God’s people over the Romans at the unknown time ‘appointed by God’.
www.waroriginsofchristianity.com

The practical modes of concealment are limited only by the imaginative capacity of subordinates.
James C. Scott, Domination and the Arts of Resistance p. 139
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Re: A Christian eschatological pattern in two steps.

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Ben C. Smith wrote: Thu Apr 26, 2018 5:20 pmThis pattern of claiming to know the date or range of dates and then having to change the claim to not knowing the date may find something of an analogy among the Millerites. Mark 13.30 (the generational prophecy) strikes me as similar to William Miller claiming that the consummation was coming between March 21, 1843, and March 21, 1844 (a range of dates). Mark 13.32-37 (the unknown hour), on the other hand, strikes me as similar to some former Millerites claiming that no one can know the exact time:

God does have a day and hour. Ellen White heard it in her first vision, although the Lord did not allow her to reveal it. The same letter quoted above explains, "I have not the slightest knowledge as to the time spoken by the voice of God. I heard the hour proclaimed, but had no remembrance of that hour after I came out of vision."

Failed predictions of timed events can get reinterpreted like this, and I believe that this may be what we are seeing in Mark 13. Miller himself, once his prediction had been falsified by time itself, admitted his mistake, but did not let go of the overall message of imminence:

I confess my error, and acknowledge my disappointment; yet I still believe that the day of the Lord is near, even at the door.

When his proposed range of dates failed him, he fell back on the motif of imminence and of the unknown hour.
In the OP, many moons ago, I laid out my theory for how predictions of "the last generation" soon gave way to the motif of "the unknown hour" in early Christianity because of disappointed expectations as the eldest members of the generation in question began to die off. I also gave, as the snippet above confirms, an analogy from the Millerites, who also had to deal with disappointed expectations as their predicted range of dates for the consummation of all things came and went. Here and now I wish to offer another analogy, this time from the Jehovah's Witnesses. I am using the same color coding from the OP (boldfaced green for the original predictions involving the last generation, boldfaced red for the mitigating motif of the unknown hour):

Kenneth L. Woodward, "Apocalypse Later," Newsweek 1995-12-17:

The third millennium is just four years away, and you'd think that Jehovah's Witnesses would be ecstatic. Ever since the movement's inception in the 1870s, the Witnesses have insisted that the world as we know it is about to end. According to their unique Biblical calculations, the countdown to Armageddon commenced in 1914 -- the first world war was a major sign-and Christ would establish his millennial kingdom on earth "before the generation who saw the events of 1914 passes away." For countless Witnesses, this prediction was good reason not to save money, start a career or make burial plans. As one of their leaders famously preached in 1918: "Millions now living will never die."

Now, it seems, all millennial bets are off. In last month's issue of The Watchtower, the sect's leaders quietly acknowledged that Jesus was right in the first place, when he said that "no one knows the day or the hour." All previous references to timetables for Armageddon, the magazine now suggests, were speculation rather than settled doctrine. The year 1914 still marks the beginning of the last days. But those who hoped to witness the battle of Armageddon and the establishment of God's kingdom on earth will have to wait. Henceforth, any generation that experiences such calamities as war and plagues like AIDS could be the one to witness the end times. In short, the increasingly middle-class Witnesses would do well to buy life insurance.

If this serious revision of expectations takes the edge off the Witnesses' apocalyptic profile, it also buys them time. The generation that was alive in 1914 is rapidly disappearing, and the sect's current leadership shows every sign of digging in for the long haul. In recent years the Witnesses have been on a building spree: they just completed a 670-acre educational center in rural New York state that includes 624 apartments, garages for up to 800 cars and a dining facility that accommodates 1,600 people at one sitting. Officials of the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society (the Witnesses' official title) deny that the leadership felt a generational pressure to change. "The end is still close," says Witness spokesman Bob Pevy. "We just can't put numbers on Jesus' words."

So far, the new interpretation has caused no noticeable decline in membership among the 5.1 million Witnesses worldwide. But then, they rarely air their differences with outsiders. "Believing the end was imminent gave a special urgency to being a Jehovah's Witness," says Ray Franz, a former member of the society's governing board in Brooklyn, N.Y., who left the church in 1981. Older members, especially, heroically risked their lives and reputations by refusing blood transfusions, military service, allegiance to the flag and other acts prohibited by their faith-all with the expectation that they would soon live forever in the paradise of God's new kingdom on earth. Charles Kris, 73, a retired autoworker from Saginaw, Mich., served three years in prison with 400 other Witnesses for refusing to fight in World War II. "It was prison life, but I took advantage of the time to study the Bible and witness to other prisoners," he recalls. But for Kris, and especially for those younger Witnesses who have no memory of the rough early days (the Nazis interred many Witnesses in concentration camps), preaching God's message is more important than witnessing the end of the world. "I'd like to live to see it happen," says Kris, who still hands out tracts door to door. "But if it doesn't in my lifetime, I won't be disappointed."

There is actually more to the parallel with early Christianity than merely the generational prophecy surrounding 1914 going unfulfilled: many Jehovah's Witnesses actually suffered persecution and even martyrdom in Germany during World War II, and their lifestyle has been notoriously out of step with the rest of society for most of the past century. Also, of course, the movement has survived its disappointed expectations because in the meantime it has built up interconnected communities of the faithful. But my main point here is that the motif of "the unknown hour" is an explicit, undisguised remedy for the disappointment of "the last generation" dying off before the divinely appointed end of all things comes to pass. I suggest that much the same thing happened in early Christianity.
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Re: A Christian eschatological pattern in two steps.

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I cannot say if it bears any relevance, but the situation described by Ellen White of forgetfulness of precise "hour" after exiting a vision is similar to the Talmud and Toledot explanation of how Jesus was initially unable to remember how to pronounce the ineffable name, which he overheard either in Egypt or from a hiding place in the temple.

As soon as Jesus tried to leave his hiding place in the temple where he overheard the ineffable name uttered by the HP on the day of atonement, the clamor of ferocious barking dogs intentionally tied nearby caused him to forget the correct pronunciation of the name.

But reading up on the Mysteries of Pseudo-Dionysius the Areopagite and the book of Pseudo-Hierotheus, connecting with God mystically is described as a very tenuous affair and insights quickly vanish.
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Re: A Christian eschatological pattern in two steps.

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DCHindley wrote: Sun Aug 09, 2020 3:42 pm I cannot say if it bears any relevance, but the situation described by Ellen White of forgetfulness of precise "hour" after exiting a vision is similar to the Talmud and Toledot explanation of how Jesus was initially unable to remember how to pronounce the ineffable name, which he overheard either in Egypt or from a hiding place in the temple.

As soon as Jesus tried to leave his hiding place in the temple where he overheard the ineffable name uttered by the HP on the day of atonement, the clamor of ferocious barking dogs intentionally tied nearby caused him to forget the correct pronunciation of the name.

But reading up on the Mysteries of Pseudo-Dionysius the Areopagite and the book of Pseudo-Hierotheus, connecting with God mystically is described as a very tenuous affair and insights quickly vanish.
Oh, is there a version with dogs barking? I have read a version with brass lions roaring, which made me wonder about the prohibition against images of "living things" in Jewish law....
Last edited by Ben C. Smith on Sun Aug 09, 2020 4:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: A Christian eschatological pattern in two steps.

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Ben wrote:There is actually more to the parallel with early Christianity than merely the generational prophecy surrounding 1914 going unfulfilled: many Jehovah's Witnesses actually suffered persecution and even martyrdom in Germany during World War II, and their lifestyle has been notoriously out of step with the rest of society for most of the past century. Also, of course, the movement has survived its disappointed expectations because in the meantime it has built up interconnected communities of the faithful. But my main point here is that the motif of "the unknown hour" is an explicit, undisguised remedy for the disappointment of "the last generation" dying off before the divinely appointed end of all things comes to pass. I suggest that much the same thing happened in early Christianity.
Rationalizations of this kind used to "explain" unexpected events or lack of expected events is one of the many reactions to cognitive dissonance that Leon Festinger had proposed. These are specialized forms of what S. Freud called "defense mechanisms." In some cases rationalizations can resolve some dissonance and actually get one closer to the truth of matters, like in scientific "revolutions."

Millerites and the Seventh Day Adventists, including David Koresh, as well as Jehovah's Witnesses in general, rationalized away numerous conflicts caused by unrealized prophesy. Look at Marxists too and Economists in general. The dualistic view of Marxism vs Capitalism was invented in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. The economics of ancient times have been reinvented many times, as illustrated by Finley et al.

I wonder, in view of cold war era attempts to understand what enemy propaganda "really" tells us, if there were ever a systematic method developed to evaluate propaganda for important facts. If someone could apply this to religious literature, it would probably help us understand what was going on then.
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Re: A Christian eschatological pattern in two steps.

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DCHindley wrote: Sun Aug 09, 2020 4:06 pmMillerites and the Seventh Day Adventists, including David Koresh, as well as Jehovah's Witnesses in general, rationalized away numerous conflicts caused by unrealized prophesy.
One article I read by a Jehovah's Witness stated that the "last generation," which to the sect originally meant those alive in 1914, also included those who had come to faith while members of that generation alive in 1914 were still living. In other words, they had reinterpreted "generation" to extend into what we would normally think of as part of the next generation. Sounded a bit like cheating to me....
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Re: A Christian eschatological pattern in two steps.

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Ben C. Smith wrote: Sun Aug 09, 2020 4:06 pm
DCHindley wrote: Sun Aug 09, 2020 3:42 pm I cannot say if it bears any relevance, but the situation described by Ellen White of forgetfulness of precise "hour" after exiting a vision is similar to the Talmud and Toledot explanation of how Jesus was initially unable to remember how to pronounce the ineffable name, which he overheard either in Egypt or from a hiding place in the temple.

As soon as Jesus tried to leave his hiding place in the temple where he overheard the ineffable name uttered by the HP on the day of atonement, the clamor of ferocious barking dogs intentionally tied nearby caused him to forget the correct pronunciation of the name.

But reading up on the Mysteries of Pseudo-Dionysius the Areopagite and the book of Pseudo-Hierotheus, connecting with God mystically is described as a very tenuous affair and insights quickly vanish.
Oh, is there a version with dogs barking? I have read a version with brass lions roaring, which made me wonder about the prohibition against images of "living things" in Jewish law....
I think Mead called them "Brazen Dogs." Mead translated the form of this legend in Samuel Krauss’ rendition of the Strassburg MS. of the Toledot in Das Leben Jesu nach jüdischen Quellen (1902), where previous scholarship had used versions found in the manuscripts used in the versions of Wagenseil and Huldreich.

Aren't dogs considered unclean in Judaism, so a strange thing to have in the temple, but unclean to eat may have no relevance to having them around as guards or noisemakers.

I think the most recent English translations are found in Michael Meerson and Peter Schäfer, Toledot Yeshu: The life story of Jesus. Texts and Studies in Ancient Judaism ; 159. Tubingen: Mohr Siebeck, 2014" which contains English translations of several versions of the Toldoth Yeschu and lists all of the known manuscripts (as of 2014). This info is from the English Wikipedia page on the topic "Toledot Yeshu."

Edit to add Mead's translation:
Mead, in Did Jesus Live 100 BC? wrote:3. Now the rule of all Israel was in the hand of a woman who was called Helene. And there was in the sanctuary a foundation-stone and this is its interpretation: God founded it and this is the stone on [262] which Jacob poured oil and on it were written the letters of the Shem,* and whosoever learned it, could do whatsoever he would. But as the wise feared that the disciples of Israel might learn them and therewith destroy the world, they took measures that no one should do so.

Brazen dogs were bound to two iron pillars at the entrance of the place of burnt offerings,** and whosoever entered in and learned these letters as soon as he went forth again, the dogs bayed at him; if he then looked at them, the letters vanished from his memory. This Jeschu came, learned them, wrote them on parchment, cut into his hip and laid the parchment with the letters therein so that the cutting of his flesh did not hurt him then he restored the skin to its place. When he went forth the brazen dogs bayed at him, and the letters vanished from his memory. He went home, cut open his flesh with his knife, took out the writing, learned the letters, went and gathered together three hundred and ten of the young men of Israel.

* K[rauss]: “Des erklärten Gottesnamens.” But Shem ha-mephoresch would perhaps be better rendered by the “ineffable name,” that is, the name which ought not to be pronounced, the name of which only the consonants Y.H.V.H. are given, which are not pronouncible, but only indicate the pronunciation as known to the initiated. I use Shem throughout for the longer form Shem ha-mephoresch.

** Or rather, the door by which the burnt offerings were brought
Last edited by DCHindley on Sun Aug 09, 2020 5:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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