Papias "Expositions" still extant in middle ages

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gmx
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Papias "Expositions" still extant in middle ages

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This claim has been made in multiple threads over the years, but I'm not sure what evidence has been put forward to support it. From memory, it was mentioned in a work of Zahn. Does anyone know the particulars?
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Ben C. Smith
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Re: Papias "Expositions" still extant in middle ages

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gmx wrote: Thu Apr 26, 2018 12:05 am This claim has been made in multiple threads over the years, but I'm not sure what evidence has been put forward to support it. From memory, it was mentioned in a work of Zahn. Does anyone know the particulars?
Not sure about Zahn, but Harnack discussed this topic: http://hypotyposeis.org/weblog/2003/11/ ... -ages.html.
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Re: Papias "Expositions" still extant in middle ages

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Also, were the first reference to Papias in Vardan Vardapet genuine, it would constitute medieval knowledge of Papias, since Vardan dates to century XIII:

But, concerning the aloe which people brought, some say that it was a mixture of oil and honey, but aloe is certainly a kind of incense. The geographer and Papias report that there are fifteen kinds of aloe in India.

Refer to John 19.39 for the aloe used to bury Jesus.

However, the reference is extremely questionable and more likely originally read "Pappos" instead of "Papias." You can read a bit about it here: https://books.google.com/books?id=YCxTA ... 22&f=false.

The second reference in Vardan Vardapet seems to derive wholly from Eusebius (though exaggerated):

That story of the adulterous woman, which the other Christians have written in their gospel, was written by a certain Papias, a disciple of John, who was declared and condemned as a heretic. Eusebius said this.

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Jax
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Re: Papias "Expositions" still extant in middle ages

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Thanks for those links Ben. :thumbup:

Also doesn't the statement of Papias concerning the "Logia of Jesus written by Matthew in the Jewish manner" sound more like the Gospel of Thomas rather than the Gospel that we know today as the Gospel of Matthew?
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Re: Papias "Expositions" still extant in middle ages

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Jax wrote: Thu Apr 26, 2018 6:01 am Thanks for those links Ben. :thumbup:

Also doesn't the statement of Papias concerning the "Logia of Jesus written by Matthew in the Jewish manner" sound more like the Gospel of Thomas rather than the Gospel that we know today as the Gospel of Matthew?
Not to me, no, at least not necessarily. I think that the term logia has been misunderstood to apply only or better to words by Jesus; it can also be words about Jesus, thus including both what Jesus himself said and what Jesus himself did. Evidence for this comes from Papias (as quoted by Eusebius) himself: "And the elder would say this: 'Mark, who had become the interpreter of Peter, wrote accurately, yet not in order, as many things as he remembered of the things either said or done by the Lord. For he neither heard the Lord nor followed him, but later, as I said, Peter, who would make the teachings to the needs, but not making them as an ordering together of the dominical logia, so that Mark did not sin having thus written certain things as he remembered them. For he made one provision, to leave out nothing of the things that he heard or falsify anything in them.'" Here Mark appears to be writing logia, just not in order, but those logia include things said and things done by the Lord.

Moreover, the term logia was already being used this way of the holy scriptures. It was not applied solely or even mainly to the words of God in those scriptures; it was applied to (any of) the scriptures (at all), regardless of who was actually writing or speaking them. Thus the logia (often translated as "oracles") could be things spoken by God, or they could be things done by God, or they could even be things just generally related to God, which all scripture theoretically is. Applying this principle to the dominical oracles, as church fathers like Ignatius and Polycarp manifestly did (refer to that link), the logia could be either by or about the Lord (without having to be either of these). The principle is laid out in 1 Peter 4.11a: "If someone speaks, let it be as the logia of God." God himself does not have to speak in order for the spoken words to be the logia of God.
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Re: Papias "Expositions" still extant in middle ages

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Ben C. Smith wrote: Thu Apr 26, 2018 4:52 am
gmx wrote: Thu Apr 26, 2018 12:05 am This claim has been made in multiple threads over the years, but I'm not sure what evidence has been put forward to support it. From memory, it was mentioned in a work of Zahn. Does anyone know the particulars?
Not sure about Zahn, but Harnack discussed this topic: http://hypotyposeis.org/weblog/2003/11/ ... -ages.html.
from the link provided by Ben wrote:“Item: I discovered in a cloister a book of Papias, a book of the Lord’s words.”
Two thoughts:
  • this does seem to support MrMacSon's idea that the logia, at least in the case of Papias' work, were sayings, rather than the more general definition Ben provided, even if that broader definition is valid in other instances.
  • what inferences can be drawn from the apparent fact that Papias' works were deliberately not preserved, if in fact they were still extant in the middle ages? Surely such ancient testimony would have been considered valuable at that juncture? Or does it possibly mean there was nothing particularly remarkable in the content (ie it was duplicated in other sources), or was it possibly saturated with fantastic anecdotes about drinking poison etc, and a potential embarrassment to the Church and its credibility?
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Re: Papias "Expositions" still extant in middle ages

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gmx wrote: Thu Apr 26, 2018 3:16 pm
Ben C. Smith wrote: Thu Apr 26, 2018 4:52 am
gmx wrote: Thu Apr 26, 2018 12:05 am This claim has been made in multiple threads over the years, but I'm not sure what evidence has been put forward to support it. From memory, it was mentioned in a work of Zahn. Does anyone know the particulars?
Not sure about Zahn, but Harnack discussed this topic: http://hypotyposeis.org/weblog/2003/11/ ... -ages.html.
from the link provided by Ben wrote:“Item: I discovered in a cloister a book of Papias, a book of the Lord’s words.”
Two thoughts:
this does seem to support MrMacSon's idea that the logia, at least in the case of Papias' work, were sayings, rather than the more general definition Ben provided, even if that broader definition is valid in other instances.
No. We know from other sources that Papias transmitted far more than just the Lord's words (regardless of what Matthew may have transmitted): he transmitted anecdotes about drinking poison (as you yourself point out), the story of the adulterous woman, and other stories not revolving around sayings. If anything, for a scribe to characterize Papias' work as "the Lord's words" offers some evidence, however late and meager, that such expressions do not have to be limited to words.

All of this is assuming that the scribe, though writing in France, (A) really found Papias' work as he says he did, (B) either knew Greek or stumbled upon a Latin translation, and (C) perused it enough to glean an idea of its contents. It may be that what our scribe discovered was a catena which headlined some quotations from Papias.
what inferences can be drawn from the apparent fact that Papias' works were deliberately not preserved, if in fact they were still extant in the middle ages? Surely such ancient testimony would have been considered valuable at that juncture? Or does it possibly mean there was nothing particularly remarkable in the content (ie it was duplicated in other sources), or was it possibly saturated with fantastic anecdotes about drinking poison etc, and a potential embarrassment to the Church and its credibility?
This is a great question. After Constantine it is easy to understand why a chiliast like Papias might have failed to be copied in broader circles. But the scholiasts of the Middle Ages would surely have regarded him as a valuable early source.
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