Need help finding a list of early Smyrna Bishops

[Secret Alias]

Yes it is interesting that Irenaeus doesn't come out and say that John established Polycarp as bishop of Smyrna:

But Polycarp also was not only instructed by apostles, and conversed with many who had seen Christ, but was also, by apostles in Asia, appointed bishop of the Church in Smyrna, whom I also saw in my early youth, for he tarried [on earth] a very long time, and, when a very old man, gloriously and most nobly suffering martyrdom,(1) departed this life, having always taught the things which he had learned from the apostles, and which the Church has handed down, and which alone are true. To these things all the Asiatic Churches testify, as do also those men who have succeeded Polycarp down to the present time,--a man who was of much greater weight, and a more stedfast witness of truth, than Valentinus, and Marcion, and the rest of the heretics. He it was who, coming to Rome in the time of Anicetus caused many to turn away from the aforesaid heretics to the Church of God, proclaiming that he had received this one and sole truth from the apostles,--that, namely, which is handed down by the Church.(2) There are also those who heard from him that John, the disciple of the Lord, going to bathe at Ephesus, and perceiving Cerinthus within, rushed out of the bath-house without bathing, exclaiming, "Let us fly, lest even the bath-house fall down, because Cerinthus, the enemy of the truth, is within." And Polycarp himself replied to Marcion, who met him on one occasion, and said, "Dost thou know me?" "I do know thee, the first-born of Satan." Such was the horror which the apostles and their disciples had against holding even verbal communication with any corrupters of the truth; as Paul also says, "A man that is an heretic, after the first and second admonition, reject; knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself."(3) There is also a very powerful(4) Epistle of Polycarp written to the Philippians, from which those who choose to do so, and are anxious about their salvation, can learn the character of his faith, and the preaching of the truth. Then, again, the Church in Ephesus, founded by Paul, and having John remaining among them permanently until the times of Trajan, is a true witness of the tradition of the apostles.

The plural 'apostles' is curious too. Who else could Polycarp have met? Another thing. Ignore Bauckham's reading of what Irenaeus says. It's all mostly nonsense. He claims Irenaeus said Barnabas was an apostle and that Irenaeus distinguished between two Johns. Bauckham is the worst sort of apologist - a subtle one.

[MrMacSon]

Very interesting responses - although quite a lot of this is going over my head - I'm grateful for the engagement.

I've been trying to find where the tradition is found of Polycarp's appointment as Bishop by John.

Irenaeus makes the claim he was appointed "by apostles in Asia", but doesn't name John. (Against Heresies (Book III, Chapter 3, v 4)

Eusebius also repeats Irenaeus' claim "by apostles in Asia" without mentioning John. (Church History, bk 4, ch 14, v 3)

I'm grateful to SA for finding the manuscript, but sadly I can't read Greek, so I can't make out what the Paris manuscript (cod. Gr. 1468) says about the matter, and I'm not sure, but it seems people are saying this section of the Acts of John did not exist before the 11th Century (is that correct?)

So the earliest source I can find where someone claims John appointed Polycarp is Jerome in De Viris Illustribus (ch 17).

Does anyone know where I can find an earlier source of the 'John appointing Polycarp' tradition?
.

This is a common scenario when trying to track supposedly early Church figures, especially of the late 1st century or early-mid 2nd century i.e. one finds more specific assertions in works of 4th or 5th century century authors about them or traditions they are included in. But no-one else mentions the details we hear later.

I think we see so many things like "appointed by apostles in Asia" by authors like Irenaeus that are attributed by later authors to one person: it's like there's been a refinement of traditions.

[Lev]

"The plural 'apostles' is curious too. Who else could Polycarp have met?"

I understand Paul describes certain people who weren't disciples of Jesus as Apostles such as James (Jesus' brother) and Priscilla and Aquilla, so perhaps the office of Apostle continued to occupied at the end of the 1st century and beginning of the 2nd by people who never followed Jesus?

[Ben C. Smith]

Another thing. Ignore Bauckham's reading of what Irenaeus says. It's all mostly nonsense. He claims Irenaeus said Barnabas was an apostle....

It is possible. The Latin is ambiguous, and the Greek is absent. It is also possible that Irenaeus called the 70 apostles, and he certainly called John the baptist an apostle.

...and that Irenaeus distinguished between two Johns.

I have examined his contention on this point, and I agree with you that he is (probably) wrong. Irenaeus does not seem to me to distinguish John of Zebedee from John the apostle/disciple of the Lord.

[Ben C. Smith]

The plural 'apostles' is curious too. Who else could Polycarp have met?

The claim is not that Polycarp met apostles (plural), but rather that he received the truth from them, a fiddly verb for a fiddly process. The church fathers always seem to cut out the middlemen in their imagined transmissions of apostolic doctrine.

[MrMacSon]

"The plural 'apostles' is curious too. Who else could Polycarp have met?"

I understand Paul describes certain people who weren't disciples of Jesus as Apostles such as James (Jesus' brother) and Priscilla and Aquilla, so perhaps the office of Apostle continued to occupied at the end of the 1st century and beginning of the 2nd by people who never followed Jesus?

Irenaeus makes reference to apostles in Against Heresies 3, 21, 3 -

.
For the apostles, since they are of more ancient date than all these [heretics], agree with this aforesaid translation; and the translation harmonizes with the tradition of the apostles. For Peter, and John, and Matthew, and Paul, and the rest successively, as well as their followers, did set forth all prophetical [announcements], just as the interpretation of the elders contains them.
.

Previously, in the same chapter, in section 1, he referred to Aquila of Pontus as a Jewish proselyte

[MrMacSon]

Irenaeus makes reference to apostles in Against Heresies 3, 21, 3 ...

As he does in earlier chapters in Bk III of Adv Haers

Chap 4 -

1. Since therefore we have such proofs, it is not necessary to seek the truth among others which it is easy to obtain from the Church; since the apostles, like a rich man [depositing his money] in a bank, lodged in her hands most copiously all things pertaining to the truth ...

Chap 5 -

1. Since, therefore, the tradition from the apostles does thus exist in the Church, and is permanent among us, let us revert to the Scriptural proof furnished by those apostles who did also write the Gospel, in which they recorded the doctrine regarding God, pointing out that our Lord Jesus Christ is the truth, and that no lie is in Him. As also David says, prophesying His birth from a virgin, and the resurrection from the dead, Truth has sprung out of the earth. The apostles, likewise, being disciples of the truth, are above all falsehood; for a lie has no fellowship with the truth, just as darkness has none with light, but the presence of the one shuts out that of the other.

Chap 12 -

1. The Apostle Peter, therefore, after the resurrection of the Lord, and His assumption into the heavens, being desirous of filling up the number of the twelve apostles, and in electing into the place of Judas any substitute who should be chosen by God, thus addressed those who were present ...

[Secret Alias]

on the subject of "Irenaeus" being an epithet rather than a name. These things happened within Aristotelianism

[Theophrastus] given name was Tyrtamus (Τύρταμος), but he later became known by the nickname "Theophrastus," given to him, it is said, by Aristotle to indicate the grace of his conversation (from Ancient Greek Θεός "god" and φράζειν "to phrase", i.e. divine expression).[7]

[Secret Alias]

Examples of individuals adopting the nickname Irenaeus

https://books.google.com/books?id=EHzsD ... us&f=false

https://books.google.com/books?id=L8qRA ... sQ6AEIVDAI

Gratius https://books.google.com/books?id=PT1CA ... us&f=false

Charlemagne https://books.google.com/books?id=-LGZE ... s"&f=false

This seems especially relevant https://books.google.com/books?id=_jglD ... ed&f=false