What is the Kingdom of Heaven?

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
Charles Wilson
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Re: What is the Kingdom of Heaven?

Post by Charles Wilson »

Ben C. Smith wrote: Wed Apr 18, 2018 4:02 pm
John2 wrote: Wed Apr 18, 2018 3:54 pmRegarding the resurrection, do you think Jesus is saying that the resurrected will live on earth... in Mk. 12:24-27?
Basically, yes.
Revelation 5: 10 (RSV):

[10] and hast made them a kingdom and priests to our God,
and they shall reign on earth."
John2
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Re: What is the Kingdom of Heaven?

Post by John2 »

Revelation 5: 10 (RSV):

[10] and hast made them a kingdom and priests to our God,
and they shall reign on earth."
Good catch, Charles.
You know in spite of all you gained, you still have to stand out in the pouring rain.
Charles Wilson
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Re: What is the Kingdom of Heaven?

Post by Charles Wilson »

Don't thank me.

In the 70s, as I would go to bed and turn out the lights, at 11:00 PM (EST), I would turn on the AM radio and wait to hear if WLS would come in. It was a Clear Channel station, meaning that the day time stations around that frequency would go off the air leaving that frequency "clear" for reception around the nation. The max a US station would be allowed to have was 50,000 watts, and so on. You can look it up... It's a history lesson now.

Anyway, Garner Ted Armstrong would come on with the WOOOOOORLD Tomorrow Broadcast and it was a lot of fun. GT was big on that Revelation verse, using it many times to 'splain how "Heaven is not the reward for the saved...". GTA was smooooooth.

Somewhat on the subject, take about 9 minutes for https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNdYMgMT-Ns to see what the fuss was all about. Imagine that you are traveling across several states on a two lane highway at night listening to Garner Ted Armstrong. GTA was a friend.

(To get to what I see, you have to see the verse as from a Source, rewritten and Transvalued. The "Kingdom of Heaven" was such an object of Transvaluation. It was real and yet, today it is another "To the Sky!" moment.)

CW
John2
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Re: What is the Kingdom of Heaven?

Post by John2 »

I've been thinking about Mt. 7:21-23 more, and though I don't recall if it has been noted by others, it is striking me as anti-Pauline (which, if so, would mean that it is not a genuine saying of Jesus). It appears to blatantly "dis" the idea of belief in Jesus without Torah observance (i.e., "the will of my Father").
Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’
As James says in 2:14, "What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them?"

In any event, I'm now comfortable with the idea that the Kingdom of Heaven is on earth (and from a Jewish Christian point of view, with a coming angelic Jesus), where everyone will live forever and observe the Torah, and, because of Daniel and the emergence of the belief in the resurrection of the dead, it includes resurrected dead people.

Which reminds me of what seems like the weirdest thing in the NT, Mt. 27:51-53:
At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, the rocks split and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection and went into the holy city and appeared to many people.


What do people say became of these resurrected people after this?
You know in spite of all you gained, you still have to stand out in the pouring rain.
FransJVermeiren
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Re: What is the Kingdom of Heaven?

Post by FransJVermeiren »

Ben C. Smith wrote: Wed Apr 18, 2018 3:41 pm
I think that Torah observance is second tier to the real idea behind the kingdom of God/heaven, which is simply that God, as the sovereign of Israel, must rule in order for justice to finally prevail. Israel/Judah languishing under the Assyrians, the Babylonians, the Medes, the Persians, the Greeks, and the Romans just will not cut it; God has to reign supreme, and not through one of those foreign powers. No, God must rule on his own merits; Israel must be a free country, possibly even the seat of its own empire; and only approved surrogates must rule over Israel in God's name (Aaronid priests and a Davidic king/messiah are the main candidates for the job).
I believe Ben accurately describes the essence of the kingdom of God/kingdom of heaven concept. It is a revolutionary concept that indicates the result of the expulsion of the Romans: a free Israel ruled by God himself, who needs a human king, the messiah, as his substitute. The religious and moral characteristics of this messiah are secondary to the political and military goal of the war against the Romans. After the temporary rule of the Assyrians and other empires of the past, and Rome in the then period, the subsequent 'kingdom of God' period of Jewish world dominion would be everlasting. The whole idea is perfectly summarized in Revelation 11:15:

Then the seventh angel blew the trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he shall reign for ever and ever."

'World' is the translation of the Greek 'kosmos', an obscuring word for the Roman empire. Roman rule (kingdom of the world) and Jewish theocratic rule (the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ) are diametrically opposed.The latter will definitively replace the former.

Verses 16-18 are a further elaboration of verse 15, confirming the anti-Roman tenor of this verse.
www.waroriginsofchristianity.com

The practical modes of concealment are limited only by the imaginative capacity of subordinates. James C. Scott, Domination and the Arts of Resistance.
Charles Wilson
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Re: What is the Kingdom of Heaven?

Post by Charles Wilson »

Ben C. Smith wrote: Wed Apr 18, 2018 3:41 pmonly approved surrogates must rule over Israel in God's name (Aaronid priests and a Davidic king/messiah are the main candidates for the job).
We are more than halfway to "British Israelism" here but the point is important:

1 Chronicles 24:

[1] The divisions of the sons of Aaron were these. The sons of Aaron: Nadab, Abi'hu, Elea'zar, and Ith'amar.
...
[19] These had as their appointed duty in their service to come into the house of the LORD according to the procedure established for them by Aaron their father, as the LORD God of Israel had commanded him.

It's difficult to have a "New Religion" ordered onto you when already have a Worship that has been approved by God as an everlasting Covenant.
FransJVermeiren wrote: Thu Apr 19, 2018 11:23 amI believe Ben accurately describes the essence of the kingdom of God/kingdom of heaven concept. It is a revolutionary concept that indicates the result of the expulsion of the Romans: a free Israel ruled by God himself, who needs a human king, the messiah, as his substitute. The religious and moral characteristics of this messiah are secondary to the political and military goal of the war against the Romans. After the temporary rule of the Assyrians and other empires of the past, and Rome in the then period, the subsequent 'kingdom of God' period of Jewish world dominion would be everlasting. The whole idea is perfectly summarized in Revelation 11:15:

Then the seventh angel blew the trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he shall reign for ever and ever."
Add to that:

Revelation 21: 3 (RSV):

[3] and I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Behold, the dwelling of God is with men. He will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself will be with them
Roman rule (kingdom of the world) and Jewish theocratic rule (the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ) are diametrically opposed.The latter will definitively replace the former.
That is the difference. In Ecclesiastes, we find that the dead know nothing. All we have is the temporary life on this earth. The Roman Rule demands obedience to Caesar. The Platonists demand an eternal soul.

The Hasmoneans set up the Priestly Rule as an eternal statement. David shall always have a King on the Throne. The Priests rotate into Jerusalem for Temple Service and it was never to end. This must change with Roman Rule. The Promised King is now in Rome. The Priests perform their duties in different garb, promising eternal life.

Hyrcanus had his ears customized and he became unfit to be High Priest. "Jesus " is Ritually Unclean, only now it doesn't matter.

'N on 'n on 'n on...

Christianity was built on these Fault Lines. The Law is good yet there is a chasm that cannot be crossed according to Paul - "...provided you accept my version of things..."

"...and they shall reign on earth.". "Dust you are and you return to dust". If "Jesus" created all that is in the earth - and according to John, he did - did he lie when the Temple Service ended and with it the idea of the one-and-only life that ends in death?

Only if the real "Kingdom of Heaven" objects are placed into the Heavenly Realm.
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Ben C. Smith
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Re: What is the Kingdom of Heaven?

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Charles Wilson wrote: Thu Apr 19, 2018 12:34 pmWe are more than halfway to "British Israelism" here but the point is important....
"We" are actually nowhere near British Israelism. :D "You" may be able to see it from your vantage point, but "I" am not even in the same galaxy.
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John2
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Re: What is the Kingdom of Heaven?

Post by John2 »

Frans wrote:
The latter will definitively replace the former.
I'm on board with what you and Ben have said about the Kingdom of Heaven, but now I'm wondering about the exact nature of it. Yes, I see it as being on earth (with an angelic Jesus, as per Hegesippus and other Jewish Christians), and dead people will come back to life and (if they were Torah-observant during their lives) live forever, but was the nature of the earth and the living people and the resurrected dead people supposed to change? Is it like Paul says in 1 Cor. 15:50-54?
I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”
He does say earlier in 15:11 regarding Jewish Christians and Jesus' resurrection, "Whether, then, it is I or they, this is what we preach, and this is what you believed."

So if the Kingdom of Heaven/God is on earth, maybe it is a transformed earth, with transformed living and dead people, who will (from a Jewish Christian but not a Pauline perspective) observe the Torah and live happily ever after forever.

Is this why Domitian dismissed the grandsons of Jesus' brother Jude according to Hegesippus in EH 3.20.6-7, because the idea is so far-fetched he let them go?
And when they were asked concerning Christ and his kingdom, of what sort it was and where and when it was to appear, they answered that it was not a temporal nor an earthly kingdom, but a heavenly and angelic one, which would appear at the end of the world, when he should come in glory to judge the quick and the dead, and to give unto every one according to his works.

Upon hearing this, Domitian did not pass judgment against them, but, despising them as of no account, he let them go, and by a decree put a stop to the persecution of the Church.
You know in spite of all you gained, you still have to stand out in the pouring rain.
Charles Wilson
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Re: What is the Kingdom of Heaven?

Post by Charles Wilson »

Ben C. Smith wrote: Thu Apr 19, 2018 1:16 pm
Charles Wilson wrote: Thu Apr 19, 2018 12:34 pmWe are more than halfway to "British Israelism" here but the point is important....
"We" are actually nowhere near British Israelism. :D "You" may be able to see it from your vantage point, but "I" am not even in the same galaxy.
Glad you got the joke. "God said it, I believe, that settles it" saith the bumper sticker. That only leaves:
1. What God has actually said, if there is a God.
2. What you actually believe, if you actually have beliefs.
3. What exactly is actually settled, if anything ever is.

If God said there would always be someone sitting on the throne, then where is that throne today? If God said that, it must be true.
"You believe what...?!??"

"Tongue tied, twisted, just an earth bound misfit...I..."

-- Pink Floyd

John2:

You and I are in different galaxies as Ben and I are for that matter (That makes at least 3 galaxies...) but the Logic Puzzles you enumerate are good'uns. I hope you find some satisfaction here.

CW
FransJVermeiren
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Re: What is the Kingdom of Heaven?

Post by FransJVermeiren »

John2 wrote: Thu Apr 19, 2018 2:32 pm Frans wrote:
The latter will definitively replace the former.
I'm on board with what you and Ben have said about the Kingdom of Heaven, but now I'm wondering about the exact nature of it. Yes, I see it as being on earth (with an angelic Jesus, as per Hegesippus and other Jewish Christians), and dead people will come back to life and (if they were Torah-observant during their lives) live forever, but was the nature of the earth and the living people and the resurrected dead people supposed to change? Is it like Paul says in 1 Cor. 15:50-54?
Maybe we should limit the kingdom of God/heaven discussion to the history-based writings of the New Testament, the gospels and Revelation in particular.
It turned out that the revolutionary Jews did not reach their goal of a free Israel. Then it is not surprising that a century later (Hegesippus) a new, apolitical interpretation has been given to the kingdom of God concept.
Paul also is not a good source: his mission is pre-Jesus (the preaching of an anonymous future Christ) and his writings are heavily reworked. We should always ask ourselves: in what parts of the Pauline writings do we hear the real, future-oriented Paul?
www.waroriginsofchristianity.com

The practical modes of concealment are limited only by the imaginative capacity of subordinates. James C. Scott, Domination and the Arts of Resistance.
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