What is the Kingdom of Heaven?

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
Charles Wilson
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Re: What is the Kingdom of Heaven?

Post by Charles Wilson »

FransJVermeiren wrote: Fri Apr 20, 2018 12:15 amMaybe we should limit the kingdom of God/heaven discussion to the history-based writings of the New Testament, the gospels and Revelation in particular.

FJV --

I used those criteria and have concluded that the Kingdom of Heaven was an actual In-this-World place. (It was in Antonia and connected to the Temple by the passageway described in Josephus).

What is wrong with this conclusion?

CW
FransJVermeiren
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Re: What is the Kingdom of Heaven?

Post by FransJVermeiren »

The kingdom of God/heaven is something which is imminent, which is approaching in time. The concept is neither spatial (Antonia...) nor territorial. In fact the word 'kingdom' is misleading because of its possible territorial connotation (the kingdom of the Netherlands, the kingdom of Spain, ...). Maybe we should systematically translate βασιλεία as 'rule': God's rule / the rule of heaven.

Matthew 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, saying, "Repent, the kingdom of heaven is at hand."
Luke 4:43 But he said to them: "I must preach the good news of the kingdom of God to the other cities also; for I was sent for this purpose."
Luke 19:11 As they heard these things, he proceeded to tell a parable, because he was near to Jerusalem, and because they supposed that the kingdom of God was to appear immediately.

See also Matthew 20:20-21 where the mother of the sons of Zebedee pleads for the best offices for her sons in the future government.

It's all about a drastic change of rule that the Zealots, to which Jesus belongs, were preparing. The mindset is revolutionary.
www.waroriginsofchristianity.com

The practical modes of concealment are limited only by the imaginative capacity of subordinates. James C. Scott, Domination and the Arts of Resistance.
Charles Wilson
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Re: What is the Kingdom of Heaven?

Post by Charles Wilson »

1. To FJV: We are at an impasse on this one. Have to agree to disagree. Certainly the KoH goes Metaphysical at some point but there are some specific markers given for the RoH being real.

2. To John2: http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/artic ... dom-of-god

Interesting start to examination of Torah.

CW
John2
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Re: What is the Kingdom of Heaven?

Post by John2 »

Frans wrote:
Maybe we should limit the kingdom of God/heaven discussion to the history-based writings of the New Testament, the gospels and Revelation in particular.
I see Hegesippus as being very similar to Revelation (and the Letter of James, whenever you date it and whoever may have written it). He is also said to have used the Gospel of the Hebrews and known Hebrew (like Jewish Christians) and to have been familiar with Jewish oral traditions (and his account of the stoning of James is in keeping with the procedure for stoning and the description of near anarchy in the priesthood during that time in the Talmud). He may have even been alive when Revelation was written (or at least was shortly after it). And he is the first Christian historian; I'm starting to think Luke/Acts used him too, which would make him earlier than a significant chunk of the NT. No way can I exclude Hegesippus from any discussion about early Christian history. But I'm with you as far as your interpretation of the other sources go.
You know in spite of all you gained, you still have to stand out in the pouring rain.
John2
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Re: What is the Kingdom of Heaven?

Post by John2 »

Something else Paul says about the changing nature of the earth is coming to mind, 1 Cor. 7:29-31:
What I mean, brothers and sisters, is that the time is short. From now on those who have wives should live as if they do not; those who mourn, as if they did not; those who are happy, as if they were not; those who buy something, as if it were not theirs to keep; those who use the things of the world, as if not engrossed in them. For this world in its present form is passing away.


And as I take a fresh look at this, it seems similar to what Jesus says about the resurrection in Mk. 12:24-27.
Jesus replied, “Are you not in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God? When the dead rise, they will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven. Now about the dead rising—have you not read in the Book of Moses, in the account of the burning bush, how God said to him, ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not the God of the dead, but of the living. You are badly mistaken!”


So maybe this is a genuine saying of Jesus, though I suppose Mark could have gotten this idea from Paul. Hm.

So the Kingdom of Heaven seems to be here, but here seems to change. And I'm starting to wonder if/how the idea of the New Jerusalem fits into this (which is another one of the similarities between Christianity and the DSS, as noted here):
The New Jerusalem Scroll appears to contain apocalyptic vision, eschatological vision of the city and the temple, although, being fragmented, it is hard to categorize. Written in Aramaic, the text describes a vast city, rectangular in shape, with twelve gates and encircled by a long wall. Similar descriptions appear in Revelation 21–22 (and possibly Ezekiel 40–48) and comparison to the Temple Scroll (also found near Qumran) shows many similarities despite no direct literary links between the two.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Jerus ... Sea_Scroll
Does this New Jerusalem idea have anything to do with Paul's reference in Gal. 4:26 to "the Jerusalem that is above"?
Last edited by John2 on Fri Apr 20, 2018 5:40 pm, edited 3 times in total.
You know in spite of all you gained, you still have to stand out in the pouring rain.
John2
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Re: What is the Kingdom of Heaven?

Post by John2 »

It looks like the Kingdom of Heaven and the New Jerusalem are on a changed earth in Rev. 21:1-8:
Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,” for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. ‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death’ or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.”

He who was seated on the throne said, “I am making everything new!” Then he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.”

He said to me: “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To the thirsty I will give water without cost from the spring of the water of life. Those who are victorious will inherit all this, and I will be their God and they will be my children. But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”
I don't have any more questions now. This answers everything.
You know in spite of all you gained, you still have to stand out in the pouring rain.
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Ben C. Smith
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Re: What is the Kingdom of Heaven?

Post by Ben C. Smith »

John2 wrote: Fri Apr 20, 2018 3:09 pm It looks like the Kingdom of Heaven and the New Jerusalem are on a changed earth in Rev. 21:1-8:
Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,” for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. ‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death’ or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.”

He who was seated on the throne said, “I am making everything new!” Then he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.”

He said to me: “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To the thirsty I will give water without cost from the spring of the water of life. Those who are victorious will inherit all this, and I will be their God and they will be my children. But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”
I don't have any more questions now. This answers everything.
:D I actually posted Revelation 21.1-2 before noticing you had already gotten there. I deleted the post.
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Stefan Kristensen
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Re: What is the Kingdom of Heaven?

Post by Stefan Kristensen »


For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not one letter, not one stroke of a letter, will pass from the law until all is accomplished. Therefore, whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, will be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven
(Matt 5:18-19)

Apparantly heaven and earth will "pass away/pass by" (παρελθη). Matthew also has the saying that the resurrected will be like the angels, i.e. non-fleshly (not able to reproduce like humans, 22:30).

gMatthew has:
33 times: "Kingdom of heaven"
4 times: "Kingdom of God"
4 times: "the Kingdom"
1 time: the kingdom of "the son of man" (16:28)
3 times: the kingdom of the father (6:10, 13:43, 26:29)

There have been many suggestions why Matthew chooses to use the term kingdom of "heaven". It could refer to the future kingdom, while "Kingdom of God" then refers to the present Christian community. And the 'kingdom of the son' is different from 'the kingdom of God/the father', while 'the kingdom of heaven' covers both.

I think the reason he chooses this term is because of the strange double nature of the Christian eschatology: The new order, i.e. the kingdom of God, is to be fully established after the great judgement and resurrection etc. and this will entail a change in nature of the earth and the humans. But this change has already begun to take place, i.e. with the Christians beliving in Christ, having received the spirit. Jesus rules already now from heaven, among the believers, so this is the kingdom in its build-up. Like a field of grain growing before the harvest.

But I think that the kingdom will change, according to Matthew, when it will be fully established (the 'harvest' time), and that's why he chooses the term 'kingdom of heaven': it can cover both stages. It is simply a stylistic term that means the Kingdom of God, at first managed by Jesus (the present), but soon enough by God himself. The point is, it is the rule of heaven. So the term should be read just like "the kingdom of God" in the other Gospels, I believe.
soberxp
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Re: What is the Kingdom of Heaven?

Post by soberxp »

(Mat)
22:2
"The kingdom of heaven is like a king who prepared a wedding banquet for his son.

(Mat)
25:1
"At that time the kingdom of heaven will be like ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom.
Charles Wilson
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Re: What is the Kingdom of Heaven?

Post by Charles Wilson »

Matthew 25: 1 - 13 (RSV):

[1] "Then the kingdom of heaven shall be compared to ten maidens who took their lamps and went to meet the bridegroom.
[2] Five of them were foolish, and five were wise.
[3] For when the foolish took their lamps, they took no oil with them;
[4] but the wise took flasks of oil with their lamps.
[5] As the bridegroom was delayed, they all slumbered and slept.
[6] But at midnight there was a cry, `Behold, the bridegroom! Come out to meet him.'
[7] Then all those maidens rose and trimmed their lamps.
[8] And the foolish said to the wise, `Give us some of your oil, for our lamps are going out.'
[9] But the wise replied, `Perhaps there will not be enough for us and for you; go rather to the dealers and buy for yourselves.'
[10] And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the marriage feast; and the door was shut.
[11] Afterward the other maidens came also, saying, `Lord, lord, open to us.'
[12] But he replied, `Truly, I say to you, I do not know you.'
[13] Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour.

This is an exception that proves the rule. "What is the Kingdom of Heaven?" I have asserted that it is a place, probably in Antonia, where people of Higher Rank may congregate. Scribes and Pharisees may not get into the Realm of Heaven. During the Temple Slaughter of 4 BCE, they prevent the Priests from finding survival in the Realm of Heaven. Royalty and the Priests can get into the Realm of Heaven. (Note: This Story appears to mean the king Archelaus and Partiers can get there. This has further implications for the Greater Story.)

Notice that the Story is a fig leaf covering what is a sexual situation. Obviously, if this is "Jesus Parable" the sexuality must be papered over. Nonetheless, the Foolish Maidens (sic) go out into the Pre-Coup night. The Transvalued word "Watch" is all over here, as in Mark. You don't know when the Atrocity is coming. Josephus describes all of this. In his own manner of course. See if you can see how much time is involved from the end of Archelaus on the elevated throne to the Order given to "Clear the Temple and Surrounding Areas".

Josephus, War..., 2, 1, 2,

"And here it was that a great many of those that desired innovations came in crowds towards the evening, and began then to mourn on their own account, when the public mourning for the king was over. These lamented those that were put to death by Herod, because they had cut down the golden eagle that had been over the gate of the temple. Nor was this mourning of a private nature, but the lamentations were very great, the mourning solemn, and the weeping such as was loudly heard all over the city, as being for those men who had perished for the laws of their country, and for the temple..."
...
At these clamors Archelaus was provoked, but restrained himself from taking vengeance on the authors, on account of the haste he was in of going to Rome, as fearing lest, upon his making war on the multitude, such an action might detain him at home. Accordingly, he made trial to quiet the innovators by persuasion, rather than by force, and sent his general in a private way to them, and by him exhorted them to be quiet. But the seditious threw stones at him, and drove him away, as he came into the temple, and before he could say any thing to them. The like treatment they showed to others, who came to them after him, many of which were sent by Archelaus, in order to reduce them to sobriety, and these answered still on all occasions after a passionate manner; and it openly appeared that they would not be quiet, if their numbers were but considerable.
...
At these the whole multitude were irritated, and threw stones at many of the soldiers, and killed them; but the tribune fled away wounded, and had much ado to escape so. After which they betook themselves to their sacrifices, as if they had done no mischief; nor did it appear to Archelaus that the multitude could be restrained without bloodshed; so he sent his whole army upon them, the footmen in great multitudes, by the way of the city, and the horsemen by the way of the plain, who, falling upon them on the sudden, as they were offering their sacrifices, destroyed about three thousand of them; but the rest of the multitude were dispersed upon the adjoining mountains: these were followed by Archelaus's heralds, who commanded every one to retire to their own homes, whither they all went, and left the festival.

What was Archelaus doing at night? Partying. Drinking. If you think the dancing was a Country Jamboree, guess again. Archelaus has obtained the Kingdom!:


Josephus, War..., 2, 2, 5:

"Then stood up Salome's son, Antipater, (who of all Archelaus's antagonists was the shrewdest pleader,)...He also reproached him further, that his mourning for his father was only pretended, while he put on a sad countenance in the day time, but drank to great excess in the night; from which behavior, he said, the late disturbance among the multitude came, while they had an indignation thereat..."

Josephus, Antiquities..., 17, 9, 5:

"He also charged him with his neglect of the funeral mourning for his father, and with having merry meetings the very night in which he died; and that it was thence the multitude took the handle of raising a tumult: and if Archelaus could thus requite his dead father, who had bestowed such benefits upon him, and bequeathed such great things to him, by pretending to shed tears for him in the day time, like an actor on the stage, but every night making mirth for having gotten the government, he would appear to be the same Archelaus with regard to Caesar, if he granted him the kingdom, which he hath been to his father..."

The Kingdom of Heaven/Realm of Heaven was a Real, Physical Place.

It is a very consistent Story and from that is what many of the NT Stories derived their content. Not their Transvalued meaning. That came later.

CW
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