No Mention of Nails

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
Secret Alias
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No Mention of Nails

Post by Secret Alias »

Just saw this on Facebook. Why if the gospel is a historical account are there no mention of nails being driven in Jesus's hands. The stigmata are important to Christian theology and by association Paul - but no specific mention of Jesus's hands (and feet) being penetrated by nails. The stigmata assume that the guy who shows himself to the disciples post-resurrection is somehow related to or identical with Jesus. But if Mark represents the original length of the gospel (i.e. which stops before the resurrection) the inference seems to be any mention of nails is later. But for Paul 'bearing the marks of Christ' implies to me at least that the stigmata can be transferred to others. Odd no?
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Ben C. Smith
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Re: No Mention of Nails

Post by Ben C. Smith »

Secret Alias wrote: Mon Mar 26, 2018 8:32 am Just saw this on Facebook. Why if the gospel is a historical account are there no mention of nails being driven in Jesus's hands. The stigmata are important to Christian theology and by association Paul - but no specific mention of Jesus's hands (and feet) being penetrated by nails. The stigmata assume that the guy who shows himself to the disciples post-resurrection is somehow related to or identical with Jesus. But if Mark represents the original length of the gospel (i.e. which stops before the resurrection) the inference seems to be any mention of nails is later. But for Paul 'bearing the marks of Christ' implies to me at least that the stigmata can be transferred to others. Odd no?
The gospels of Peter and of John speak of the nails after the fact, and so does Justin Martyr:

John 20.24-25, 27: 24 But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came. 25 So the other disciples were saying to him, "We have seen the Lord!" But he said to them, "Unless I see in His hands the imprint of the nails, and put my finger into the place of the nails, and put my hand into His side, I will not believe." .... 27 Then He says to Thomas, "Reach here with your finger, and see My hands; and reach here your hand and put it into My side; and do not be unbelieving, but believing."

Peter 21.6: 6 And they drew out the nails from the hands of the Lord and placed him on the earth; and all the earth was shaken, and a great fear came about.

1 Apology 35.7: 7 And the expression, "They pierced my hands and my feet," was used in reference to the nails of the cross which were fixed in His hands and feet.

It is interesting that nobody seems to narrate the nails actually going in.
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Giuseppe
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Re: No Mention of Nails

Post by Giuseppe »

The stigmata assume that the guy who shows himself to the disciples post-resurrection is somehow related to or identical with Jesus.
Really an interesting observation.

Louis Rylands thought that the expiatory-sacrifice-theology is a later layer in the Pauline Epistles. The nails seem also to emphasize the theological value of the sacrifice of Jesus (etc).

Rarely such a tiny detail is so full of theological significance.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
Secret Alias
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Re: No Mention of Nails

Post by Secret Alias »

What I meant to say Ben is that if we accept that the gospel expanded from Mark or something like Mark it is odd that 'nails' aren't specifically mentioned in the initial 'historical' section - i.e. when action is taking place publicly. The stigmata are referenced in John and Paul but not in the core 'historical' proto-narrative.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Secret Alias
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Re: No Mention of Nails

Post by Secret Alias »

Yes Peter is interesting:

Peter 21.6: 6 And they drew out the nails from the hands of the Lord and placed him on the earth; and all the earth was shaken, and a great fear came about.

Hard to argue that this is a gnostic gospel. Talking cross withstanding (though Goodacre has a good explanation for that).
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Giuseppe
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Re: No Mention of Nails

Post by Giuseppe »

Often it's said that Paul 'bearing the marks of Christ' gives the same theological meaning of Simon of Cyrene ''bearing the cross of Christ''. Also in this case ''the guy who shows himself'' bearing the marks/the cross of Christ '' is somehow related to or identical with Jesus''.

So this may be a thin clue of the Cyrenaic episode being a later proto-catholic interpolation.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
Secret Alias
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Re: No Mention of Nails

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Maybe. Clement also cites the gospel as 'bearing the sign' somewhere. Nothing about a cross.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
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Ben C. Smith
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Re: No Mention of Nails

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Are there any known stigmatics before Francis of Assisi, though? If the "marks of Christ" in Galatians are the stigmata, did the phenomenon take a break for more than a millennium before manifesting itself in Christianity's greatest medieval saint? I know the people in my evangelical background always interpreted the "marks of Christ" simply as whatever marks an apostle might receive from scourgings and similar sources: not as mystical blood wounds.
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Secret Alias
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Re: No Mention of Nails

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Muhammad was recognized by 'marks' by Jews and Samaritans. Ben Stada 'scratches.'
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Secret Alias
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Re: No Mention of Nails

Post by Secret Alias »

Muhammad:

I have seen a piece of paper on which was drawn the shape of the Seal of Prophethood; they claimed that this shape was what was to be found between the shoulders of the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him). On it were written some words in Arabic, such as the name of Allaah and the name of our Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) and some other words. I hope you could explain that and tell me the true description of the Seal, and alert the Muslims to that. May Allaah reward you with good.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
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