the strange detail of the death ''out of the gates''

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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Giuseppe
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the strange detail of the death ''out of the gates''

Post by Giuseppe »

I can accept that Jesus existed but that the his Birth in Betlehem was invented.

I can accept that Jesus existed but that the his infancy in Nazaret was invented.

I can even accept that Jesus existed but that the reference to ''Golgotha/place of the skull'' was invented.

What I can't accept is the idea that Jesus existed and that the detail that he was suffered ''out of the gates'' (Hebrews 13:12) was invented.

These two ideas are logically mutually exclusive.


Since a historicist reading of Hebrews 13:12 has to assume necessarily (and I underline: necessarily) that the his author wrote that Jesus suffered ''out of the gate'' basically because he knew that Jesus was crucified out of Jerusalem of Judea.

The author of Hebrews could know nothing about a lot of things about a historical Jesus, but at least he had to know where precisely he died. Since even a Paul wanted to know ''only'' about the ''crucified Christ''. And surely the information about the precise place of the his crucifixion was absolutely necessary for him (if Jesus was historical).

Now, the problem is that, as I have explained before here, the detail of the death ''out of the gates'' is derived from the scriptures.

In short: the fact that the Gospel Jesus is crucified ''out of'' the earthly Jerusalem is more probably a consequence of the fact that the Epistle Jesus is crucified ''out of'' the celestial Jerusalem. And not vice versa.

Because otherwise the coincidence would be too much impossible to be true: that a historical Jesus was crucified ''out of'' the earthly Jerusalem, and (sic) he is also able to realize the point of the scriptures (being real or simply imagined there) that places the suffering of the ideal just ''out of'' the gates of the celestial Jerusalem.

This is a real problem for the historicists.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
FransJVermeiren
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Re: the strange detail of the death ''out of the gates''

Post by FransJVermeiren »

Golgotha was outside the gates, and so was the memorial with the rolling stone where Jesus was taken care of after his premature deposition from the cross. This memorial was just south of the Golgotha area, its underground part still exists today and can be visited freely on the outside. You can find it in the park between the King David hotel and the Montefiore windmill, some tens of meters south of the end of Elimelech Admoni street. People on the western wall of Jerusalem could see the area outside the gates, including Golgotha and Herod's memorial, from afar. Maybe this is the meaning of Mark 15:40: There were also women looking on from afar.

See also
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gXzijfVQKUA (video)
http://dqhall59.com/tomb.htm (first photograph)
www.waroriginsofchristianity.com

The practical modes of concealment are limited only by the imaginative capacity of subordinates. James C. Scott, Domination and the Arts of Resistance.
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