The Conclusion of Adv Marc 2 and the Antitheses

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Secret Alias
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The Conclusion of Adv Marc 2 and the Antitheses

Post by Secret Alias »

Now in the matter of pettinesses and malignities, and the rest of those bad marks, I can myself put together a few rival antitheses in opposition to Marcion. If my God was unaware that there was another god above him, yours likewise did not know that there was another beneath him: as it was put by Heraclitus the obscure, It is the same road upwards as downwards.1 In fact, if he had not been ignorant of him, he would have opposed him from the start. Sin and death, and the actual author of sin, the devil, and every evil thing which my God has allowed to exist, yours also has allowed, by allowing him to allow them. Our God has altered his decisions—exactly as yours has: for your god, who has at so late a date had regard for the human race, has altered that decision by which for all those long ages he abstained from regarding them. Our God, in the case of a certain person, repented of the evil: and so did yours. For the fact that he did at length have respect for man's salvation was an act of repentance
for his initial disregard—such repentance as is owed to an evil deed. Moreover, neglect of man's salvation must be accounted an evil deed, and in the case of your god this was rectified only by repentance. Our God recommended theft—but of gold and silver. But by how much a man is of greater value than gold and silver, by so much is your god more of a thief, stealing man away from his Owner and Maker. Our God demands an eye for an eye: but your god, by prohibiting retaliation, makes it more likely the injury will be repeated—for surely any man who is not hit back will repeat his blow. Our God is unaware of the character of the men he is promoting: and so is yours: he would not have promoted Judas the traitor if he had known beforehand (what he was to be). And as you affirm that in one place the Creator told a lie, there is a much greater lie in your Christ,
for his body was not a true one. My God's cruelty has put an end to many: your god in his turn consigns to destruction those whom he omits to save. My God ordered a certain person to be put to death: yours desired himself to be killed, a murderer as well of himself as of the man by whom it was his will to be put to death. I shall prove to Marcion that his god has put to death a great many: for he made (Israel) a murderer, who consequently must perish, unless it is the case that that people committed no sin against (Marcion's) Christ. But the power of truth is quick in
action, content with few words: falsehood will stand in need of many.

Now if my plea that the Creator combines goodness with judgement had called for a more elaborate demolition of Marcion's Antitheses, I should have gone on to overthrow them one by one, on the principle that the instances cited of both aspects are, as I have already proved, jointly in keeping with (a sound idea of) God. Both aspects, the goodness and the judgement, combine to produce a complete and worthy conception of a divinity to which nothing is impossible: and so I am for the time being content to have rebutted in summary fashion those antitheses which, by criticism of the moral value of the Creator's works, his laws, and his miracles, indicate anxiety to establish a division, making Christ a stranger to the Creator—as it were the supremely good a stranger to the judge, the kind to the cruel, the bringer of salvation a stranger to the author of destruction. Instead of dividing, those antitheses do rather combine into unity the two whom they place in such oppositions as, when combined together, give a complete conception of God. Take away Marcion's title take away the intention and purpose of his work, and this book will provide neither more nor less than a description of one and the same God, in his supreme goodness and in his judgement— for these two conceptions are conjoined in God and in him alone. In fact Marcion's very anxiety, by means of the instances cited, to set Christ in opposition to the Creator, does rather envisage their unity. For the one and only real and objective divinity showed itself, in these very instances and these very deductions
from them, to be both kind and stern: for his purpose was to give evidence of his kindness, particularly in those against whom he had previously shown severity. The change which time brought about is nothing to be wondered at: God subsequently became more gentle, in proportion as things had become subdued, having been at first more strict when they were unsubdued. So Marcion's antitheses make it easier to explain how the Creator's mode of action was by Christ rather refashioned than repudiated, re- stored rather than rejected: especially so when you make your good god exempt from every bitterness of feeling, and, in that case, from hostility to the Creator. If that is the case how can the antitheses prove he has been in opposition to one or another aspect of the Creator's character? To sum up: I shall by means of these antitheses recognize in Christ my own jealous God. He did in the beginning by his own right, by a hostility which was rational and therefore good, provide beforehand for the maturity and fuller ripeness of the things which were his. His antitheses are in conformity with his own world: for it is composed and regulated by elements contrary to each other, yet in perfect proportion. Therefore, most thoughtless Marcion, you ought rather to have shown that there is one god of light and another of darkness: after that you would have found it easier to persuade us that there is one god of kindness and another of severity. In any case, the antithesis, or opposition, will belong to that God in whose world it is to be found.
Clearly then the original author of Adv Marc was a monarchist who was offended at Marcion's Jewish conception of the godhead as two powers - one of judgement, the other of mercy. This is so obvious, it is scandalous to think that anyone would ever come to any other conclusion.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
lsayre
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Re: The Conclusion of Adv Marc 2 and the Antitheses

Post by lsayre »

Great observation!

Is it possible that the 'Documentary Hypothesis' can be utilized to aid in presenting a case for the God of goodness and the God of judgement to be the two powers in heaven?
Giuseppe
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Re: The Conclusion of Adv Marc 2 and the Antitheses

Post by Giuseppe »

Clearly then the original author of Adv Marc was a monarchist who was offended at Marcion's Jewish conception of the godhead as two powers - one of judgement, the other of mercy
Why was necessarily 'Jewish' and not gentile this dualism?
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
Secret Alias
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Re: The Conclusion of Adv Marc 2 and the Antitheses

Post by Secret Alias »

Because it is OBVIOUSLY related to the dualism of Philo. You know Jewish DNA shows connection to Italy. You shouldn't want to escape them so much Giuseppe http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2013/10/ ... nate-italy
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Giuseppe
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Location: Italy

Re: The Conclusion of Adv Marc 2 and the Antitheses

Post by Giuseppe »

Wasn't the same Philo strongly influenced by the Greek philosophy about this dualism you talk about?
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
Secret Alias
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Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2015 8:47 am

Re: The Conclusion of Adv Marc 2 and the Antitheses

Post by Secret Alias »

No.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Secret Alias
Posts: 18362
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2015 8:47 am

Re: The Conclusion of Adv Marc 2 and the Antitheses

Post by Secret Alias »

This is of course where things get ludicrous with your approach. If I see a politician or a civic leader who relentlessly crusades against homosexuality a part of me immediately suspects when he helps 'cure' one of these gay people he's going to secretly ask the guy mi prendi per il culo. You know what I mean. Too interested. In the same way you can't say that the Marcionites were relentlessly obsessive about Judaism but when it comes to their godhead it's all pagan. That's you Guiseppe. YOU are interested in pagan myths. But you don't really know very much about Judaism other than you don't like it. But the depth of interest and knowledge that Marcion had or Marcionites had about Judaism naturally leads to the same conclusion. Just like the guy who's always crusading against the gays saying, 'watch out for gays, they aren't trustworthy, they lie, they cheat, they have sex with you and leave without kissing you goodbye ...' The same person can't be obsessive about something and disinterested in or beyond that same thing.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
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