Outer Space Jesus in Paul (still)

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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Giuseppe
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Outer Space Jesus in Paul (still)

Post by Giuseppe »

Psalm 24:

Lift up your heads, you gates;
be lifted up, you ancient doors,
that the King of glory may come in.
8 Who is this King of glory?
The Lord strong and mighty,
the Lord mighty in battle.
9 Lift up your heads, you gates;
lift them up, you ancient doors,
that the King of glory may come in.
10 Who is he, this King of glory?
The Lord Almighty—
he is the King of glory


Psalm 9:


Lord, see how my enemies persecute me!
Have mercy and lift me up from the gates of death,
14 that I may declare your praises
in the gates of Daughter Zion,
and there rejoice in your salvation.
15 The nations have fallen into the pit they have dug;
their feet are caught in the net they have hidden.
16 The Lord is known by his acts of justice;
the wicked are ensnared by the work of their hands.
17 The wicked go down to the realm of the dead,


Surely this is the source of 1 Cor 2:6-8.

Note the occurrence in both of "Lord of the Glory" and of the reference to the archontes of this world.

But just when "he Lord" sees the persecutions of the his servant, (9:13) where is the latter in the moment of the extreme danger?

He is "in the gates of Zion".

The his presence "there" at the moment of the his coming death (and of the his invocation of salvation addressed to the Lord) is confirmed by the command addressed to the same "gates" in 24:9. Only as effect of the his death, he can enter in Zion beyond these gates. But before that moment, these same gates, being closed, are called "gates of death" (9:13).

Therefore the archontes are the celestial guardians of these "gates". They prevent souls - and Jesus too - from the entry in Zion. And Zion that is mentioned is the celestial Jerusalem (the upper heavens).

So Jesus finds the archontes on the his way only when he exits from the celestial Zion and attempts to enter again in it. During his ascension. So allowing in the middle the Eucharist episode on the earth (an event "seen" only by Paul) before the his death at the (closed) gates of the celestial Zion.

In Hebrews also Jesus dies "out of the gates" of the celestial Zion.

And naturally the celestial Zion had to be euhemerized in the earthly Jerusalem by proto-Mark.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
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Ben C. Smith
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Re: Outer Space Jesus in Paul (still)

Post by Ben C. Smith »

The Lord of glory:

1 Enoch 22.14: 14 The I blessed the Lord of glory [τὸν κύριον τῆς δόξης] and said: "Blessed be my Lord, the Lord of righteousness, who rules forever."

1 Enoch 27.3-5: 3 "In the last days there shall be upon them the spectacle of righteous judgement in the presence of the righteous for ever: here shall the merciful bless the Lord of glory [τὸν κύριον τῆς δόξης], the Eternal King. 4 In the days of judgement over the former, they shall bless Him for the mercy in accordance with which He has assigned them (their lot)." 5 Then I blessed the Lord of glory [τὸν κύριον τῆς δόξης] and set forth His glory and lauded Him gloriously.

1 Enoch 36.3: 3 Through each of these small portals pass the stars of heaven and run their course to the west on the path which is shown to them. And as often as I saw I blessed always the Lord of glory, and I continued to bless the Lord of glory who has wrought great and glorious wonders, to show the greatness of His work to the angels and to spirits and to men, that they might praise His work and all His creation: that they might see the work of His might and praise the great work of His hands and bless Him for ever.

1 Enoch 40.3: 3 And I heard the voices of those four presences as they uttered praises before the Lord of glory.

1 Enoch 63.2: 2 And they shall bless and glorify the Lord of Spirits, and say, "Blessed is the Lord of spirits and the Lord of kings, and the Lord of the mighty and the Lord of the rich, and the Lord of glory and the Lord of wisdom."

1 Enoch 75.3: 3 For the signs and the times and the years and the days the angel Uriel showed to me, whom the Lord of glory has set for ever over all the luminaries of the heaven, in the heaven and in the world, that they should rule on the face of the heaven and be seen on the earth, and be leaders for the day and the night, that is, the sun, moon, and stars, and all the ministering creatures which make their revolution in all the chariots of the heaven.

1 Enoch 83.8: 8 And now, my son, arise and make petition to the Lord of glory, since thou art a believer, that a remnant may remain on the earth, and that He may not destroy the whole earth.

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Giuseppe
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Re: Outer Space Jesus in Paul (still)

Post by Giuseppe »


Psalm 2
1 Why do the nations conspire
and the peoples plot in vain?
2 The kings of the earth rise up
and the rulers band together
against the Lord and against his anointed
, saying,
3 “Let us break their chains
and throw off their shackles.”
4 The One enthroned in heaven laughs;
the Lord scoffs at them.
5 He rebukes them in his anger
and terrifies them in his wrath, saying,
6 “I have installed my king
on Zion
, my holy mountain.”
7 I will proclaim the Lord’s decree:

He said to me, “You are my son;
today I have become your father.
8 Ask me,
and I will make the nations your inheritance,
the ends of the earth your possession.
9 You will break them with a rod of iron;
you will dash them to pieces like pottery.”
10 Therefore, you kings, be wise;
be warned, you rulers of the earth
.
11 Serve the Lord with fear
and celebrate his rule with trembling.
12 Kiss his son, or he will be angry
and your way will lead to your destruction,
for his wrath can flare up in a moment.
Blessed are all who take refuge in him

Curiously, the "kings" are addressed here (verse 10) just as the same "gates" (in Psalm 24): they are the gate-keepers.

If the Lord considers the precise revenge of the Son as the his being "installed on Zion" (verse 6), then the opposed situation (with the anointed being out of the gates) is that one where the "kings" seem to prevail and plot against the anointed.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
Giuseppe
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Re: Outer Space Jesus in Paul (still)

Post by Giuseppe »

Here is David Mitchell's translation of the Targum Tosephta on Zechariah 12:10:

"And I shall cause to rest upon the house of David and upon the dwellers of Jerusalem a spirit of prophecy and true prayer.

And afterwards Messiah bar Ephraim shall go forth to engage in battle with Gog, and Gog will slay him before the gate of Jerusalem."

So it is very difficult to believe that the mythical Jesus was killed in the past or in the recent time "before the gate of Jerusalem". Even in the past the event had to be necessarily seen, if it happened "before the gates of Jerusalem", since the Jerusalem that is meant is the Jerusalem already conquered by king David.

So, pace G. A. Wells, the mythicists are moved velim nolim to consider the gates of the celestial Jerusalem as the more probable place where Jesus was crucified by the evil rulers of this age. Not on the eath.

To think otherwise means to give up to the same idea that the earthly place of the mythical crucifixion was someway known by the scriptures.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
Giuseppe
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Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:37 am
Location: Italy

Re: Outer Space Jesus in Paul (still)

Post by Giuseppe »

Psalm 24:8 :
Who is this King of glory?

So if the ''rulers of this world'' asked themselves this question about the identity of their victim - not gaining no answer still at the time of Paul (1 Cor 2:6-8) -, this can only mean that they had already killed him when the Psalm was written.

So the crucifixion was an event happened in an undefinite past.

But still the place of the crucifixion remains a mystery for me.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
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