Pilate and Josephus

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
Secret Alias
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Re: Pilate and Josephus

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You like this section because of its relationship to Josephus. But it is not original to Mark or the synoptics.
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maryhelena
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Re: Pilate and Josephus

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Secret Alias wrote: Wed Mar 28, 2018 12:07 pm You like this section because of its relationship to Josephus. But it is not original to Mark or the synoptics.
Could you be more specific.....what section is 'not original to Mark or the synoptics' ?
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Re: Pilate and Josephus

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Secret Alias wrote: Wed Mar 28, 2018 11:31 am And I think the ending tacked on Mark 6:17 was added to harmonize with Josephus:

ὅτι αὐτὴν ἐγάμησεν

There is something puzzling about the narrative:

or Herod himself had given orders to have John arrested, and he had him bound and put in prison. He did this because of Herodias, his brother Philip’s wife, whom he had married. 18 For John had been saying to Herod, “It is not lawful for you to have your brother’s wife.” 19 So Herodias nursed a grudge against John and wanted to kill him. But she was not able to, 20 because Herod feared John and protected him, knowing him to be a righteous and holy man. When Herod heard John, he was amazed; yet he liked to listen to him.

Herodias's anger at John doesn't make any sense to me.
Well - if something does not make sense then perhaps it's not meant to be taken literally. In this case, the Herod (Antipas) Herodias and John the Baptist story, it's seems more likely to be an allegory than historical.

OK - here is one possible scenario:

The gospel scenario runs something like this; John the forerunner has to be sidelined in order for the Jesus story to run. Herodias becomes the instrument of John's downfall/death - apparently holding a grudge against John re her marriage to Herod (Antipas). A marriage John says is unlawful. Brother-in law marriage had the purpose of raising a son for a deceased brother. However, Philip, according to Slavonic Josephus, had four children but their sex is not identified. '' For thou dost not raise up seed for thy brother, but gratifiest thy fleshly lust and committest adultery, seeing that four children of him are alive.'' So, re the story, Herodias has married Herod (Antipas) for lust/love and not as a brother-in-law marriage to raise a son for her dead husband Philip.

Seemingly, re the story, John the Baptist is upholding dynastic marriage while Herodias is marrying for love. From a gospel point of view this story would highlight the breakaway from the Jewish Law, the Mosaic Law, the dynastic law, to the new covenant where love is the predominant focus.

From a political allegory point of view: Herodias herself is Hasmonean/Herodian - thus outside the 'pure' blood of the Hasmonean Dynasty. A dynasty represented in the allegory via John the Baptist. Herod (Antipas), like his father before him, loves that Hasmonean bloodline and seeks to incorporate it into his Herodian bloodline - thus creating the Hasmonean/Herodian dynasty. The result being the end, the death, of the Hasmonean Dynasty - allegorically depicted via the beheading of John the Baptist.

As an allegory - it would make sense that John's call for dynastic purity would give rise to Herodias's grudge against him. She cannot deny her own mixed ancestry.

The above is one way to understand the Herod (Antipas) Herodias and John the Baptist gospel story - there may well be others.....
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Re: Pilate and Josephus

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But if it is an allegory then how is it a chronological problem for the dating of the gospel?
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maryhelena
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Re: Pilate and Josephus

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Secret Alias wrote: Thu Mar 29, 2018 12:05 pm But if it is an allegory then how is it a chronological problem for the dating of the gospel?
Herod (Antipas) is a historical figure. The gospel story has him married to Herodias prior to the Jesus crucifixion story. Consequently, dating that marriage has relevance to dating the gospel crucifixion story. The allegory i.e. the gospel story regarding Herod (Antipas), Herodias and John the Baptist, is a separate issue to the history of the marriage of Herod (Antipas) and Herodias.

Similarly, Pilate was in Judea for x number of years - regardless of the story the gospel writers created about him and a Jesus crucifixion. Attributing stories to historical figures does not bestow historicity on the stories.....
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Re: Pilate and Josephus

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But is the marriage between Herod and Herodias datable?
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maryhelena
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Re: Pilate and Josephus

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Secret Alias wrote: Thu Mar 29, 2018 2:17 pm But is the marriage between Herod and Herodias datable?
Stephan, I already pointed out the reasoning for dating this marriage: Herod (Antipas) divorced his wife, the daughter of Aretas. Aretas goes to war with Herod (Antipas). A war just prior to the death of Tiberius in 37 c.e. Yes, of course, one can question everything that Josephus writes. However, in this case, because the Josephan story reflects figures from the gospel story it is perhaps wise to consider any relationship between them. A straightforward reading of Josephus - without any knowledge of the gospel Herod (Antipas) Herodias and John the Baptist story - would place the marriage of Herod (Antipas) to Herodias shortly before the war with Aretas.

And interestingly......

37 CE as the year of the Passion

copyright 2008 Stephan Huller

There is now no doubt that Sunday, March 25th was remembered as the date for the Resurrection. As we have already seen Alexandria was the ultimate ‘epicenter’ of that tradition. One would think that this date alone should convince the world that the accompanying year was 37 CE. This is after all the only year in which a Sunday, March 25th could have been the date of the Resurrection. Nevertheless as is well known science alone doesn’t convince Christian religious minds. 37 CE was a problem for the Church – for reasons we already illustrated in the book. Indeed I would go so far as to argue that the Catholic New Testament canon was deliberately established to obscure the true date of the Passion.

http://therealmessiahbook.blogspot.co.u ... dix-b.html

Stephan, yes I know that you now want to uphold the Acts of Pilate 7th year of Tiberius crucifixion story. But that version of the Jesus story has been superseded by the Jesus story in the synoptic gospels. Yes, 21 c.e. is 49 years (7x7) to the fall of Jerusalem in 70 c.e., However, this date does suggest a birth narrative 49 (7x7) years earlier, around 28 b.c. - but that would take one into Slavonic Josephus territory with a birth narrative prior to the 15th year of Herod and an older Jesus re gJohn i.e. this would not be a version supported by the synoptic gospels as Matthew has Jesus a young child under Archelaus - and anyway, Matthew and Mark have the Herod (Antipas) Herodias and John the Baptist story - a story that takes the Jesus story towards the end of the rule by Pilate. All earlier versions of the Jesus story demonstrate is that the story was never static. The story moved as historical events moved - or perhaps the story moved as it's creators understood more fully, from history, what their story should embrace. Consequently, while the history of the development of the story is interesting, it's the latest software update that needs attention - and that is gLuke.

The Josephan TF dating of 19 c.e. has relevance as it is 49 years (7x7) from the death/execution of Hyrancus in 30 b.c. As again, the 36/37 c.e. dating for a Jesus crucifixion, prior to the war between Herod and Aretas, has relevance to Hasmonean history being 100 years since the siege of Jerusalem by Pompey in 63 b.c. (and interestingly, another Aretas laid siege to Jerusalem prior to Pompey: )

Aretas advanced towards Jerusalem at the head of 50,000 men, besieging the city for several months. Eventually, Aristobulus bribed Marcus Aemilius Scaurus, deputy of the Roman general Pompey. Scaurus ordered Aretas to withdraw his army, which then suffered a crushing defeat at the hands of Aristobulus on the journey back to Nabatea.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aretas_III

A defeat for Aretas III prior to 63 b.c.e but a victory for Aretas IV, against Herod, a hundred years later in 37 c.e.
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Re: Pilate and Josephus

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a birth narrative 49 (7x7) years earlier, around 28 b.c.
There was no birth recorded for Jesus in the earliest gospel. Irrelevant.
I know that you now want to uphold the Acts of Pilate 7th year of Tiberius


When you don't have fixed positions you go where you are led. It doesn't mean you stay. The Acts of Pilate date for the gospel in interesting. I like interesting. interesting is never predictable.
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maryhelena
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Re: Pilate and Josephus

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Secret Alias wrote: Fri Mar 30, 2018 7:47 pm
a birth narrative 49 (7x7) years earlier, around 28 b.c.
'

There was no birth recorded for Jesus in the earliest gospel. Irrelevant.
A birth narrative of an 'anointed one' is placed, in Slavonic Josephus, prior to the 15th year of Herod.

(Then) Herod said: “How can we discover him?”
and Levi said: Send throughout the whole land of
Judaea (asking)how many male infants have
been born since the Persians saw the star
right up to the present day, kill them all, and
that (child) will also be killed. And your
kingdom will be secure for you and your sons
and even for your great-grandsons”.

And immediately he sent forth heralds throughout
the whole land that all (of) the male sex born
from now and (back) to the third year are to be
honoured and to receive (a gift of)gold. (When)
enquiring whether any (male infant) had been born
without a father they were to pretend that (Herod)
would adopt him as his son and make him king.
And since they did not discover a single such
(infant), he gave orders to kill all
6 myriad and 3000 infants.

When all were weeping and waiting at the
shedding of blood, the priests came and begged
him to release the innocents; but he threatened
them all the more (telling them) to keep silent.
And they all fell prostrate and lay to the sixth hour
at his feet. And the king’s rage prevailed.
Later, they rose and told him:”Listen to your
servants, so that the Most High
may favour you. It is written that the
Anointed One is (to be)born in Bethlehem.
Even if you have no mercy on your servants,
kill those infants of Bethlehem and let the
others go”. And he gave the order and they
killed all the infants of Bethlehem.”

In the fifteenth year of his reign
he (re)built the temple
and renovated its walls,

Jewish War and Its Slavonic Version: A Synoptic Comparison: H. Leeming (editor) K. Leeming (editor)

I know that you now want to uphold the Acts of Pilate 7th year of Tiberius

When you don't have fixed positions you go where you are led. It doesn't mean you stay. The Acts of Pilate date for the gospel in interesting. I like interesting. interesting is never predictable.
Yes, agreed, the Acts of Pilate date is interesting - but so too are all the other crucifixion dates that can be interpreted from the sources dealing with Pilate's time in Judea.
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maryhelena
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Re: Pilate and Josephus

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Further to a 36/37 ce dating under Pilate for the gLuke crucifixion story and the divorce of the daughter of Aretas from Herod (Antipas)

Preview Google Books

here

Chronos, Kairos, Christos: Nativity and Chronological Studies


Crucifixion in A.D. 36:
The Keystone for Dating the Birth of Jesus
Nikos Kokkinos.

It has been presumed by many that by the phrase ‘the beginning of enmity’ (Antiquities 18:113) Josephus means the dismissal of Aretas’s daughter. However, Josephus really indicates that the two kings were in dispute over frontier issues, but Aretas was avoiding military action since Antipas was married to his daughter. The frontier questions were the initial cause of enmity...... ‘(Aretas) made this the start of a quarrel; a dispute about boundaries in the district of Gabalitis (Antiquities 18:113) Once his daughter was dismissed, Aretas was no longer under obligation to avoid war and hence he could lead his army against Antipas. This view was expressed as early as 1866 by T. Keim: ‘The initium dissidii is immediately followed by action: Aretas at once breaks with Antipas, brings on the controversy about the boundary, collects, troops, and strikes the blow: initium belli’.

It has been further argued that it should not be obligatory for Aretas’s revenge to follow hard on his daughter’s return. One could suppose he needed time to collect troops, yet it is evident that Aretas was one of the most powerful independent rulers of the East and he would not have needed a lengthy period for preparations. As K.Lake explained, ‘Political or strategical reasons for a long delay on the part of Aretas cannot be found.’ I would suggest that on psychological grounds it would have been impossible for an outraged and insulted father, who had the power to act, to have waited longer than a year of two before taking active measures.

Tread softly because you tread on my dreams.
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