Pilate and Josephus

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
User avatar
maryhelena
Posts: 2962
Joined: Tue Oct 08, 2013 11:22 pm
Location: England

Re: Pilate and Josephus

Post by maryhelena »

Below are a few points that relate to the marriage of Herod (Antipas) to Herodias. The points relate to when did Agrippa I leave Rome and his wife appealed to Herodias for help.

Nikos Kokkinos: The Herodian Dynasty. (page 272-276)

The question of how long Agrippa I stayed in Rome is significant for an understanding of the early part of his career, and it needs to be addressed properly here. Josephus clearly tells us that Agrippa left Rome only after he was reduced to poverty, as a result of recklessly spending the fortune left to him by his mother on her death. Hence our primary question must be the year in which Berenice I died....................

....most scholars automatically assumed that he left Rome in CE 23, in the year Drusus died. This is a serious uncritical assumption, the date provides only a terminus post quem.

.....Now, since his arrival at Palestine Agrippa withdrew to Idumaea, since all subsequent events relating to him belong to the early 30s, Smallwood could not find the means to explain why, had he returned in CE 23, Agrippa’s life stood still for almost a decade. Would he have locked himself up in the tower of Malatha, contemplating suicide for some 10 years? In its effort to a void this artificial vacuum the new Schurer admitted that Wieseler was ‘more or less correct’ to place the journey of Agrippa from Rome to Palestine in CE 29 or CE 30. An even later date is surely called for.

Schurer continued by pointing out that the return of Agrippa could not have occurred before the marriage of Antipas to Herodias, as an event dated here to CE 34. Although a short period (perhaps a year) elapsing between Agrippa’s withdrawal to Idumaea and his wife’s appeal to Herodias in 34, is not excluded by Ant. 18,147-48, the implication nevertheless is that he would not have returned before 32/33. Such a date can illuminate many points raised here for the first time.

a. C. Herennius Capito, who had been commissioned to recover from Agrippa some considerable debts incurred to the imperial treasury in Rome, began dunning him for the repayment only in late CE 35. Clearly this debt, which baffled Smallwood, is not likely to have been owing since before CE 23, the year when Agrippa left Rome according to the majority opinion.

b. Consider what Josephus says about Tiberius Gemellus, the son of Drusus and grandson of the Emperior Tiberius. Agrippa ‘had helped bring him up’. But Gemellus was born only in CE 19, he was still regarded as ‘a mere child’ in 33, and had yet to enter puberty early in 37 – in fact he became princeps iuventutis only later in that year. Certainty Agrippa did not help bring Gemellus up before CE 23!

===============
.....b. Berenice had been honoured by Augustus himself, and her mother’s property had been left to Livia...One would have expected Bernice to follow her mother’s example, or at least share her property between both great imperial ladies. Livia and Antonia Minor. Yet among the beneficiaries of her will, we hear only of Antonia. Whatever the circumstances, this would make perfect sense after the death of Livia at the beginning of CE 29.

.....c. One of the daughters of Agrippa I, the notorious Berenice II, was born in CE 28/29 .....and, as her name betrays, she would have been called after her grandmother - possibly immediately after the latter’s death. It may well be the case that a few months after the death of Livia in January(?) CE 29, Berenice I died, to be followed shortly by the birth of her granddaughter. Berenice I would have been around 60 at that time.

Image

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Herodian-Dynas ... s+kokkinos
Tread softly because you tread on my dreams.
W.B. Yeats
Secret Alias
Posts: 18922
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2015 8:47 am

Re: Pilate and Josephus

Post by Secret Alias »

our primary question must be the year in which Berenice I died
Doesn't sound like he answered that question convincingly. Just threw in a lot of distraction and marginalia. You begin with the problems with the reliability of Josephus and his assistants and the entire paradigm which has been discussed many times. So you have this fragile situation on top of the difficulty of using ancient historians generally - i.e. they don't always agree with one another on the details when you have multiple sources but here you have really only have one. This one source of information is likely four generations to a century after the details in question. And then you have the parallel with Christian literature in a Christian preserved text. No way this can be viewed as a 'problem' for the earlier dating of the crucifixion. Sorry.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
User avatar
maryhelena
Posts: 2962
Joined: Tue Oct 08, 2013 11:22 pm
Location: England

Re: Pilate and Josephus

Post by maryhelena »

Secret Alias wrote: Fri Apr 06, 2018 6:07 am
our primary question must be the year in which Berenice I died
Doesn't sound like he answered that question convincingly. Just threw in a lot of distraction and marginalia. You begin with the problems with the reliability of Josephus and his assistants and the entire paradigm which has been discussed many times. So you have this fragile situation on top of the difficulty of using ancient historians generally - i.e. they don't always agree with one another on the details when you have multiple sources but here you have really only have one. This one source of information is likely four generations to a century after the details in question. And then you have the parallel with Christian literature in a Christian preserved text. No way this can be viewed as a 'problem' for the earlier dating of the crucifixion. Sorry.
I have no problem with an early date for a Jesus crucifixion story - many dates can be interpreted from the available gospel sources. If there is a problem then that problem belongs to the Jesus historicists who tie themselves up in knots trying to harmonize all the conflicting data. Viewing the gospel Jesus figure as a literary figure allows for all the contradictory data to be viewed in a different manner i.e. different Jesus crucifixion dates demonstrate a developing Jesus story. In other words, at different times different crucifixion dates were used. The final Jesus story development being that of gLuke and his 6 c.e. (Quirinius) dating - allowing for a Jesus crucifixion story to be set at the end of the rule of Pilate - 36/37 c.e.

That the writings of Josephus are problematic - and nothing more so than the Agrippa I stories - does not mean that arguments for a late in Pilate's rule crucifixion story are invalid. As I've said in earlier posts - take your pick re whatever Jesus crucifixion date appeals to one - but be mindful that a scholar such as Nikos Kokkinos can find a different date more reasonable re the available Josephan and gospel data.
Tread softly because you tread on my dreams.
W.B. Yeats
Secret Alias
Posts: 18922
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2015 8:47 am

Re: Pilate and Josephus

Post by Secret Alias »

But Luke didn't exist before 170 CE or thereabouts. I think Luke is Irenaeus or perhaps better yet Irenaeus was Luke.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
User avatar
maryhelena
Posts: 2962
Joined: Tue Oct 08, 2013 11:22 pm
Location: England

Re: Pilate and Josephus

Post by maryhelena »

Secret Alias wrote: Fri Apr 06, 2018 6:36 am But Luke didn't exist before 180 CE or thereabouts. I think Luke is Irenaeus or perhaps better yet Irenaeus was Luke.
Methinks more likely a connection between Luke and Josephus... ;)

After all, we are dealing with storytelling not eye-witness accounts...
Tread softly because you tread on my dreams.
W.B. Yeats
User avatar
Ben C. Smith
Posts: 8994
Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2015 2:18 pm
Location: USA
Contact:

Re: Pilate and Josephus

Post by Ben C. Smith »

Secret Alias wrote: Fri Apr 06, 2018 6:36 am But Luke didn't exist before 170 CE or thereabouts. I think Luke is Irenaeus or perhaps better yet Irenaeus was Luke.
Luke interpreted the abomination of desolation in terms of the desolation of Jerusalem. Irenaeus interpreted the abomination of desolation as a future Antichrist figure. Irenaeus, then, if he had anything to do with the publication of Luke, at the very most edited an already written text and did not exercise very close control over it:

Matthew 24.15-16: 15 "Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place — let the reader understand — 16 then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains."

Mark 13.14: 14 "But when you see the abomination of desolation standing where it should not be — let the reader understand — then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains."

Luke 21.20: 20 "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near."

Irenaeus, Against Heresies 5.30.2-3a: 2 These men, therefore, ought to learn and go back to the true number of the name, that they be not reckoned among false prophets. But, knowing the sure number declared by Scripture, that is, six hundred sixty and six, let them await, in the first place, the division of the kingdom into ten; then, in the next place, when these kings are reigning, and beginning to set their affairs in order, and advance their kingdom, [let them learn] to acknowledge that he who shall come claiming the kingdom for himself, and shall terrify those men of whom we have been speaking, having a name containing the aforesaid number, is truly the abomination of desolation. This, too, the apostle affirms: "When they shall say, Peace and safety, then sudden destruction shall come upon them." And Jeremiah does not merely point out his sudden coming, but he even indicates the tribe from which he shall come, where he says, "We shall hear the voice of his swift horses from Dan; the whole earth shall be moved by the voice of the neighing of his galloping horses: he shall also come and devour the earth, and the fullness thereof, the city also, and they that dwell therein." This, too, is the reason that this tribe is not reckoned in the Apocalypse along with those which are saved. 3a It is therefore more certain, and less hazardous, to await the fulfillment of the prophecy, than to be making surmises, and casting about for any names that may present themselves, inasmuch as many names can be found possessing the number mentioned; and the same question will, after all, remain unsolved.

ΤΙ ΕΣΤΙΝ ΑΛΗΘΕΙΑ
Secret Alias
Posts: 18922
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2015 8:47 am

Re: Pilate and Josephus

Post by Secret Alias »

There was undoubtedly a proto-Acts and a proto-gospel both later ascribed to Luke. Good observation though.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Secret Alias
Posts: 18922
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2015 8:47 am

Re: Pilate and Josephus

Post by Secret Alias »

If 666 = Nero doesn't that work too? Irenaeus speaks about the year of favor stretching from the apostolic age to the time he wrote. The anti Christ might have been part of that continuum
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Secret Alias
Posts: 18922
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2015 8:47 am

Re: Pilate and Josephus

Post by Secret Alias »

All the solutions he gives pertain to the Jewish War i.e. Nero, Titus, Latin(s)
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
User avatar
Ben C. Smith
Posts: 8994
Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2015 2:18 pm
Location: USA
Contact:

Re: Pilate and Josephus

Post by Ben C. Smith »

Secret Alias wrote: Fri Apr 06, 2018 6:54 am If 666 = Nero doesn't that work too? Irenaeus speaks about the year of favor stretching from the apostolic age to the time he wrote. The anti Christ might have been part of that continuum
Irenaeus also writes about the temple which fell in 70 as if it were the same temple in which the Antichrist would sit. Other fathers were more explicit than Irenaeus about the temple being rebuilt at some point in order to allow for these prophecies to be fulfilled. So I am not always sure what Irenaeus is thinking. All I know is that he still considers the/an Antichrist figure to be future with respect to his own time of writing.
ΤΙ ΕΣΤΙΝ ΑΛΗΘΕΙΑ
Post Reply