Pilate and Josephus

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rakovsky
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Re: Pilate and Josephus

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Atwill is smart in seeing a strong connection between the stories, but I am skeptical that it is an allusion to Christianity being hidden Caesar worship. Consider that the two stories are antithetical. In Mundus' story, Mundus pretends to be a god, but reveals himself to be a fake, clever deceiver on the third day. In Jesus' story, Jesus comes as a "wise man", but is resurrected on the third day, which Peter's epistle said reveals him to be God. Thus the Testamonium says of Jesus the phrase "if he should be called a man", hinting to him being truly a God. That is, unlike the fake god deceiver Mundus who was spared and exiled, Jesus's resurrection shows him to be the antithesis, one who is truly God and not a deceiver. That is how I see the antithetical literary device working. Since Jesus is the opposite of the deceiver Mundus, it does not seem to present Jesus as Caesar deceptively pretending to be "Jesus".

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Re: Pilate and Josephus

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rakovsky

Hi, again. I'm not entirely following your line of thought on Paulina and Mundus, although I share your interest in it, as we discussed earlier. It would help me if you could clarify whether you think Josephus invented these people and events, or instead believed that these events really happened.

That is, apart from why Josephus might have found this story worthy of inclusion in his book, was he reporting, composing, or perhaps something in between, like "creatively spinning" a report based largely in real events?
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Re: Pilate and Josephus

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rakovsky wrote: Mon Mar 12, 2018 3:47 pm Mary Helena, I still don't understand how the fact that Germanicus died in October 19 ad, as you just posted, would, as you said, expose the Acts Pilati, which narrated Jesus's killing in 21 ad. Tiberius ruled from about 14 ad onward, making his 7th year of rule 21 ad, agreeing with a claim of a 7th year of Tiberius crucifixion.

Do you think that you could please explain at more length in your own words how "If the purpose of the proposed forgery of 11 and 10 years (for Gratus and Pilate) was to make the 7th year of Tiberius crucifixion in Acts of Pilate look false, make it look like a hoax, then they were delusional because anyone with access to Tactius or Roman history re Tiberius and Germanicus would be able to expose the forgery"?
Historically, re Schwartz and Mason, two Josephan scholars, Pilate was in office in Judah in 19 c.e. They base this historical argument on the fact that Josephus has placed Pilate in a historical context of events that the historian Tactius placed around the death of Germanicus - a death that occurred in 19 c.e.

Eusebius rejects this dating for Pilate. He does so by referencing Josephus and the 12th year of Tiberius
- thus acknowledging that Pilate followed the 11 years Josephus has given to Gratus. Therefore, says Eusebius, the JC crucifixion in Acts of Pilate with it's 7th year of Tiberius dating is a forgery - because Pilate was not in office in the 7th year of Tiberius.

On a historical basis, Eusebius is wrong because Pilate was in office in Judea in 19 c.e. and therefore the 7th year crucifixion in Acts of Pilate is not a forgery but a plausible date for a Jesus crucifixion story to be set.

An attempt to prove the Acts of Pilate as a forgery, by using the 11 and 10 years to move Pilate' appointment to office in Judea away from the 7th year of Tiberius to the 12th year of Tiberius, would be, is, delusional - for the simple reason that Josephus has placed Pilate within historical events surrounding the death of Germanicus - a death occuring in 19 c.e.

Yes, Josephus has left the dating of Pilate ambiguous: The 11 and 10 years for Gratus and Pilate; Gratus given only around a 4 year rule; Pilate in office in a period dated to 19 c.e. But to privilege one set of dating over the other is to deny the ambiguity. Methinks a better approach is to allow the ambiguity in dating to question not just Josephus' grasp of history - but what his motive might be for presenting the ambiguity itself.

(Josephus)....in the eighteenth book of his Antiquities, says that about the twelfth year of the reign of Tiberius, who had succeeded to the empire after Augustus had ruled fifty seven years, Pontius Pilate was entrusted with the government of Judea, and that he ruling remained there ten full years, almost until the death of Tiberius.

2. Accordingly the forgery of those who have recently given currency to acts against our Saviour is clearly proved. For the very date given in them shows the falsehood of their fabricators.

3. For the things which they have dared to say concerning the passion of the Saviour are put into the fourth consulship of Tiberius, which occurred in the seventh year of his reign; at which time it is plain that Pilate was not yet ruling in Judea, if the testimony of Josephus is to be believed, who clearly shows in the above-mentioned work that Pilate was made procurator of Judea by Tiberius in the twelfth year of his reign.
.........

1. Having therefore forged Acts of Pilate and our Saviour full of every kind of blasphemy against Christ, they sent them with the emperor's approval to the whole of the empire subject to him, with written commands that they should be openly posted to the view of all in every place, both in country and city, and that the schoolmasters should give them to their scholars, instead of their customary lessons, to be studied and learned by heart.

Eusebius. The History of the Church (p. 204). . Kindle Edition.

Eusebius. The History of the Church (p. 19). . Kindle Edition.

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Re: Pilate and Josephus

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Paul the Uncertain wrote: Mon Mar 12, 2018 10:16 pm rakovsky

Hi, again. I'm not entirely following your line of thought on Paulina and Mundus, although I share your interest in it, as we discussed earlier. It would help me if you could clarify whether you think Josephus invented these people and events, or instead believed that these events really happened.

That is, apart from why Josephus might have found this story worthy of inclusion in his book, was he reporting, composing, or perhaps something in between, like "creatively spinning" a report based largely in real events?
My guess is that he was spinning a report based partly on real events. I think that Suetonius said that in c. 19 ad the Egyptian cults were banished due to temple prostitution. My guess is that Josephus likely took that information and spun a lurid tale, naming his characters Paulina (after Paul, who is alluded to in the next story about the 4 Jewish swindlers) and Decius Mundus (meaning "Tenth World", a very unlikely name for a real person).

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Re: Pilate and Josephus

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Ok, thanks Mary

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Re: Pilate and Josephus

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rakovsky wrote: Tue Mar 13, 2018 5:14 am...Decius Mundus (meaning "Tenth World", a very unlikely name for a real person).
Are you confusing Decius with decimus? Decius is a Roman family name (nomen gentilicium). (ETA: It can also be a praenomen.) Mundus would be the cognomen (admittedly a rare one, it would seem, but a cognomen nonetheless).
Last edited by Ben C. Smith on Tue Mar 13, 2018 12:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Pilate and Josephus

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Ben C. Smith wrote: Tue Mar 13, 2018 5:35 am
rakovsky wrote: Tue Mar 13, 2018 5:14 am...Decius Mundus (meaning "Tenth World", a very unlikely name for a real person).
Are you confusing Decius with decimus? Decius is a Roman family name (nomen gentilicium). Mundus would be the cognomen (admittedly a rare one, it would seem, but a cognomen nonetheless).
Yes, I was confusing the two words. Thank you for pointing that out. Is Decius related to Decian, meaning to declare?
My guess is that like Paulina and Ida the betrayer being references to the Biblical Paul and Iuda the betrayer, the name of Decius Mundus also was a fictional reference to something in Jesus's story.

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Re: Pilate and Josephus

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rakovsky wrote: Tue Mar 13, 2018 6:35 amYes, I was confusing the two words. Thank you for pointing that out. Is Decius related to Decian, meaning to declare?
Not to my knowledge, but I have not researched the etymology of Decius in particular.

The Latin mundus, by the way, is originally an adjective meaning neat or elegant. From this sense came the noun, meaning the ornamentation of women's fashion. Somewhere along the way came the notion of the "world," it being well ordered and neat in how it all works together. One can trace the same development in the Greek κόσμος, from "order" to women's fashion and to "world" or "cosmos."
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Re: Pilate and Josephus

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I couldn't find the etymology for Decius. Latin Decian - to declare and Spanish Decir - to say is The closest that I could get.

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Re: Pilate and Josephus

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rakovsky wrote: Tue Mar 13, 2018 7:04 am I couldn't find the etymology for Decius. Latin Decian - to declare and Spanish Decir - to say is The closest that I could get.
Where are you getting a Latin verb decian? That is not even conjugated like a Latin verb. Spanish "decir" comes from the Latin dico/dicere.
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