Sator Square

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
Secret Alias
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Re: Sator Square

Post by Secret Alias »

and gematria graffiti
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
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DCHindley
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Re: Sator Square

Post by DCHindley »

Secret Alias wrote: Mon Mar 19, 2018 6:27 pmremember I don't believe in this stuff. I just think that ancients believed in this nonsense so we have to take it seriously
Actually, I was just thinking that you like number symbolism, not criticizing you for it. There may be some sort of number symbolism behind the choice of a 5x5 square, but does it have to correspond to the numerical value of the name IHVH in Hebrew? In Pompeii? I just don't think so.

I think that I've heard that there was Jewish origin to the square, and it must go back to the kind of thinking of that author I cited above, which is informed by medieval magic and kabbalah. It seems to me that projecting a pre-79 CE Jewish source for the AREPO square based on medieval evidence is a bit - um - "iffy."

DCH
Secret Alias
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Re: Sator Square

Post by Secret Alias »

I don't think so either. Jews think they invented gematria. The assumption is "Jews never learn anything from outsiders." Nonsense
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Secret Alias
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Re: Sator Square

Post by Secret Alias »

“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Bertie
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Re: Sator Square

Post by Bertie »

Back when I was most interested in Christ mythicism, I heard about the Pompeii graffiti and wondered why it wasn't discussed more; I made some effort to find out more about it but struck out -- a pretty common opinion about it around this and related communities was that it was fake. But as the linked article says, it is actually multiply attested by leading scholars of the day who independently produced two similar samples of the text.

This ought to mean something, right? I mean, entire large categories of Christ mysticism are falsified by this text alone with its terminus ad quem for "Christians" of 79 CE , right? Those arguments for interpolation in Tacitus/Josephus/Pliny that have as their root the idea that "no one in the time of those authors would have understood an offhand reference to 'Christians'" are falsified by this text alone, right?
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Ben C. Smith
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Re: Sator Square

Post by Ben C. Smith »

Bertie wrote: Tue Mar 20, 2018 6:21 am
Back when I was most interested in Christ mythicism, I heard about the Pompeii graffiti and wondered why it wasn't discussed more; I made some effort to find out more about it but struck out -- a pretty common opinion about it around this and related communities was that it was fake. But as the linked article says, it is actually multiply attested by leading scholars of the day who independently produced two similar samples of the text.

This ought to mean something, right? I mean, entire large categories of Christ mysticism are falsified by this text alone with its terminus ad quem for "Christians" of 79 CE , right? Those arguments for interpolation in Tacitus/Josephus/Pliny that have as their root the idea that "no one in the time of those authors would have understood an offhand reference to 'Christians'" are falsified by this text alone, right?
I have had a similar experience with it. I put this graffito forward once on a forum years ago, was immediately asked whether it was genuine or not, and did not have a ready response; so I retracted it and dropped the subject. But investigation since then has made me wonder. I have read the Tuccinardi before, as well as some of the better online treatments, and I think the topic needs to be revisited with greater care than the usual dismissals on the one side and fantasy stories on the other.
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maryhelena
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Re: Sator Square

Post by maryhelena »

https://coriniummuseum.culturalspot.org ... Q?hl=en-GB

The pic of the painted wall-plaster can be enlarged.
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maryhelena
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Re: Sator Square

Post by maryhelena »


Antiquities book 20 ch.7

[141] But for the marriage of Drusilla with Azizus, it was in no long time afterward dissolved upon the following occasion: While Felix was procurator of Judea, he saw this Drusilla, and fell in love with her; for she did indeed exceed all other women in beauty; and he sent to her a person whose name was Simon one of his friends; a Jew he was, and by birth a Cypriot, and one who pretended to be a magician, and endeavored to persuade her to forsake her present husband, and marry him; and promised, that if she would not refuse him, he would make her a happy woman. Accordingly she acted ill, and because she was desirous to avoid her sister Bernice's envy, for she was very ill treated by her on account of her beauty, was prevailed upon to transgress the laws of her forefathers, and to marry Felix; and when he had had a son by her, he named him Agrippa. But after what manner that young man, with his wife, perished at the conflagration of the mountain Vesuvius, in the days of Titus Caesar, shall be related hereafter.

Interesting, if there is substance to the Josephan account, then the Hasmoneans/Herodians had a connection to the disaster of Pompeii. Thus, using the usual NT chronology, it seems that there could well have been knowledge of the Jesus story in Pompeii.....i.e. re Josephus, people from Judea were living in Pompeii and could have brought the Jesus story with them...
Tread softly because you tread on my dreams.
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Jax
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Re: Sator Square

Post by Jax »

maryhelena wrote: Tue Mar 20, 2018 9:29 am
Antiquities book 20 ch.7

[141] But for the marriage of Drusilla with Azizus, it was in no long time afterward dissolved upon the following occasion: While Felix was procurator of Judea, he saw this Drusilla, and fell in love with her; for she did indeed exceed all other women in beauty; and he sent to her a person whose name was Simon one of his friends; a Jew he was, and by birth a Cypriot, and one who pretended to be a magician, and endeavored to persuade her to forsake her present husband, and marry him; and promised, that if she would not refuse him, he would make her a happy woman. Accordingly she acted ill, and because she was desirous to avoid her sister Bernice's envy, for she was very ill treated by her on account of her beauty, was prevailed upon to transgress the laws of her forefathers, and to marry Felix; and when he had had a son by her, he named him Agrippa. But after what manner that young man, with his wife, perished at the conflagration of the mountain Vesuvius, in the days of Titus Caesar, shall be related hereafter.

Interesting, if there is substance to the Josephan account, then the Hasmoneans/Herodians had a connection to the disaster of Pompeii. Thus, using the usual NT chronology, it seems that there could well have been knowledge of the Jesus story in Pompeii.....i.e. re Josephus, people from Judea were living in Pompeii and could have brought the Jesus story with them...
I would point out that the entire Campania region was heavily resettled by the retired veterans of Julius Caesar and Augustus Caesar. Veterans that could have been exposed to a Paul in the 1st century BCE.

Food for thought.
Secret Alias
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Re: Sator Square

Post by Secret Alias »

seriously?
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
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