Sator Square

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
User avatar
DCHindley
Posts: 3434
Joined: Mon Oct 07, 2013 9:53 am
Location: Ohio, USA

Re: Sator Square

Post by DCHindley »

rakovsky wrote: Sun Mar 18, 2018 7:38 am
Secret Alias wrote: Sun Feb 25, 2018 11:28 am
Image
My guess is that it was Christian, and I find numerous pieces of evidence for this like the picture above, but the evidence is circumstantial.

Romans of the time liked to play with anagrams and such puzzles. If the square is an anagram puzzle, and this is likely if there were other known square anagrams, then it looks like the decipherment is Our Father in a cross surrounded by the Alpha and Omega.

There is other such circumstantial evidence like its clear later longtime use by Christians in many places, its creation in the Christian era, its appearance in locations possibly or likely having some Christians like Pompei and Dur Europa. Christians at the time were a semi illegal group hiding their religion in symbols like fish and anchors, so this is the kind of thing that they would create.
Personally, I am not convinced that the fact that the letters "can" be formed into words and orders to make a cross surrounded by A & O for Alpha & Omega (first and last letters of Greek alphabet) is strong evidence for a Christian presence in Pompei.

Personally, I think it was just a puzzle that was intended to amuse, not encrypt.

There is a long history of use of word puzzles as magical inscriptions or incantations. Most are phrases like "abanathanalba" which are palindromes, but can include stacked lines of text where the full line (say 15-20 characters, perhaps an incantation itself) is reduced by one letter in the next line down, and so on, with the spacing justified around a center line so the complete inscription will look like a top or inverted triangle. It is supposed to stop the demon named in the incantation, and reduce it's influence, until its effects on the victim is reduced to nothing.

Those are just examples of magical uses of such puzzles. But Romans liked word games and tricks that can be played with them.

That this Latin puzzle game could be taken as an anagram (using some Greek imagery) with a Christian message, must have come later. The SATOR square is clearly created in the Latin language, but the Christian interpretation depends on Greek symbolism (Alpha and Omega are the first and last letters of the Greek, not Latin, alphabets) such as we find in the Apocalypse.

I could see a half literate landed farmer, especially an Italian one who was a Roman citizen but in the lower end of the socio-economic system just a notch above landless peasants, creating the SATOR square as a whimsical commentary on his place in the big picture of things: "The farmer, Arepo, masters his craft and is quick to tend to his seasonal duties." That, of course(tm), is a paraphrase. Others, including slaves and landless tenants, got the joke and secretly reproduced it on exteriors of houses and walls of the estates of their masters and patrons, as a weird form of inside humor.

The Pompeii graffiti also included advertisement signs for a gladiator show, anonymous comments about local politics and gossip, and even private messages to each other. The graffiti found on buildings and walls at public and private places in Pompeii and Herculaneum are full of weird stuff like that.

Puzzles like the SATOR square, if it is a wry commentary on the plight of poor Roman citizens farmers, may have been around since the days of the Gracchus brothers, who led the last Roman faction to try and reform to rules about how much property could be controlled by any one family, preventing the squeezing out of the poorer Roman citizens. They were not successful in their mission, and subsequently land ownership quickly concentrated into the hands of families who were in the upper end of the socio-economic system.

Interestingly, it was Tiberius Gracchus who complained about the plight of poorer Roman citizens who were required to perform military service in the Legions, saying:
Plutarch, Lives 39, quoting Roman politician Tiberius Gracchus, wrote:"The wild beasts of Italy have their caves to retire to; but the brave men who spill their blood in her cause have nothing left but air and light. Without houses, without any settled habitations, they wander from place to place with their wives and children; and their generals do but mock them, when, at the head of their armies, they exhort their men to fight for their sepulchers and domestic gods: for, among such numbers, perhaps there is not a Roman who has an altar that belonged to his ancestors, or a sepulcher in which their ashes rest. The private soldiers fight and die to advance the wealth and luxury of the great; and they are called masters of the world, while they have not a foot of ground in their possession."
Compare to

Matthew 8:20: "And Jesus said to him, 'Foxes have holes, and birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man has nowhere to lay his head.'"

Luke 9:58: "And Jesus said to him, 'Foxes have holes, and birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man has nowhere to lay his head.'"

Seems that sort of mentality was attractive to Christians as well as poor Roman citizens. Christians were generally not even Roman citizens, and spoke Greek, not Latin, but if you are a grunt worker, which for a good while comprised most of the rank and file among this sect, they also got the joke, with the benefit of being amenable to a somewhat forced Christian interpretation.

DCH
User avatar
rakovsky
Posts: 1310
Joined: Mon Nov 23, 2015 8:07 pm
Location: USA
Contact:

Re: Sator Square

Post by rakovsky »

DCHindley wrote: Sun Mar 18, 2018 10:52 am
rakovsky wrote: Sun Mar 18, 2018 7:38 am
Secret Alias wrote: Sun Feb 25, 2018 11:28 am
Image
My guess is that it was Christian, and I find numerous pieces of evidence for this like the picture above, but the evidence is circumstantial.

Romans of the time liked to play with anagrams and such puzzles. If the square is an anagram puzzle, and this is likely if there were other known square anagrams, then it looks like the decipherment is Our Father in a cross surrounded by the Alpha and Omega.

There is other such circumstantial evidence like its clear later longtime use by Christians in many places, its creation in the Christian era, its appearance in locations possibly or likely having some Christians like Pompei and Dur Europa. Christians at the time were a semi illegal group hiding their religion in symbols like fish and anchors, so this is the kind of thing that they would create.
Personally, I am not convinced that the fact that the letters "can" be formed into words and orders to make a cross surrounded by A & O for Alpha & Omega (first and last letters of Greek alphabet) is strong evidence for a Christian presence in Pompei.

Personally, I think it was just a puzzle that was intended to amuse, not encrypt.

There is a long history of use of word puzzles as magical inscriptions or incantations. Most are phrases like "abanathanalba" which are palindromes, but can include stacked lines of text where the full line (say 15-20 characters, perhaps an incantation itself) is reduced by one letter in the next line down, and so on, with the spacing justified around a center line so the complete inscription will look like a top or inverted triangle. It is supposed to stop the demon named in the incantation, and reduce it's influence, until its effects on the victim is reduced to nothing.

Those are just examples of magical uses of such puzzles. But Romans liked word games and tricks that can be played with them.
Are there any other examples from Roman times of square anagram puzzles like this one could be, where several words are stacked on top to form a square and can be decrypted as an anagram?

My research on the prophecies of the Messiah's resurrection: http://rakovskii.livejournal.com
User avatar
Ben C. Smith
Posts: 8994
Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2015 2:18 pm
Location: USA
Contact:

Re: Sator Square

Post by Ben C. Smith »

Anagrams can seem magical sometimes. Dormitory is an anagram for dirty room, the Morse code for here come dots, snooze alarms for alas, no more z's. My favorite is eleven plus two, an anagram for twelve plus one.
ΤΙ ΕΣΤΙΝ ΑΛΗΘΕΙΑ
Ethan
Posts: 978
Joined: Tue Feb 13, 2018 1:15 pm
Location: England
Contact:

Re: Sator Square

Post by Ethan »

They were no Christians at Pompeii and the 'Cross' was already a religious prop in Roman culture even in BCE Era, but the Cross became assigned to Christianity must later in it's history.
https://vivliothikiagiasmatos.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/joseph-yahuda-hebrew-is-greek.pdf
User avatar
DCHindley
Posts: 3434
Joined: Mon Oct 07, 2013 9:53 am
Location: Ohio, USA

Re: Sator Square

Post by DCHindley »

Well, I decided to look up the quote attributed to Tiberius Gracchus in Plutarch's Life of Tiberius Gracchus 9.4-5, and give it here, along with the NT gospel passages which uses similar phraseology:

Plutarch, Life of Tiberius Gracchus 9.5
Plutarch. Plutarch's Lives. with an English Translation by. Bernadotte Perrin. Cambridge, MA. Harvard University Press. London. William Heinemann Ltd. 1921.
Greek English
[4] ἀλλ᾽ οὐδὲν ἐπέραινον [4] But they accomplished nothing;
ὁ γὰρ Τιβέριος πρὸς καλὴν ὑπόθεσιν καὶ δικαίαν ἀγωνιζόμενος λόγῳ καὶ φαυλότερα κοσμῆσαι δυναμένῳ πράγματα δεινὸς ἦν καὶ ἄμαχος, for Tiberius, striving to support a measure which was honourable and just with an eloquence that would have adorned even a meaner cause,
ὁπότε τοῦ δήμου τῷ βήματι περικεχυμένου καταστὰς λέγοι περὶ τῶν πενήτων, was formidable and invincible, whenever, with the people crowding around the rostra, he took his stand there and pleaded for the poor.
ὡς τὰ μὲν θηρία τὰ τὴν Ἰταλίαν νεμόμενα καὶ φωλεὸν ἔχει καὶ κοιταῖόν ἐστιν αὐτῶν ἑκάστῳ 'The wild beasts that roam over Italy,' he would say, 'have every one of them a cave or lair
[5] καὶ καταδύσεις,1 τοῖς δὲ ὑπὲρ τῆς Ἰταλίας μαχομένοις καὶ ἀποθνῄσκουσιν ἀέρος καὶ φωτός, [5] to lurk in; but the men who fight and die for Italy enjoy the common air and light,
ἄλλου δὲ οὐδενὸς μέτεστιν, ἀλλ᾽ ἄοικοι καὶ ἀνίδρυτοι μετὰ τέκνων πλανῶνται καὶ γυναικῶν, indeed, but nothing else; houseless and homeless they wander about with their wives and children.
οἱ δὲ αὐτοκράτορες ψεύδονται τοὺς στρατιώτας ἐν ταῖς μάχαις παρακαλοῦντες ὑπὲρ τάφων καὶ ἱερῶν ἀμύνεσθαι τοὺς πολεμίους: And it is with lying lips that their imperators exhort the soldiers in their battles to defend sepulchres and shrines from the enemy;
οὐδενὶ γάρ ἐστιν οὐ βωμὸς πατρῷος, for not a man of them has an hereditary altar,
οὐκ ἠρίον προγονικὸν τῶν τοσούτων Ῥωμαίων, not one of all these many Romans an ancestral tomb,
ἀλλ᾽ ὑπὲρ ἀλλοτρίας τρυφῆς καὶ πλούτου πολεμοῦσι καὶ ἀποθνῄσκουσι, but they fight and die to support others in wealth and luxury,
κύριοι τῆς οἰκουμένης εἶναι λεγόμενοι, and though they are styled masters of the world,
μίαν δὲ βῶλον ἰδίαν οὐκ ἔχοντες. they have not a single clod of earth that is their own.'
1 καταδύσεις Bekker and many other editors have κατάδυσις, after Stephanus and Reiske. Both variant words means exactly the same thing

And the NT passages:

Luke 9:58 & Matt 8:20
Luke 9:58 & Matt. 8:20
καὶ εἶπεν [Matt 8:20 λέγει] αὐτῷ ὁ Ἰησοῦς· And Jesus said to him,
αἱ ἀλώπεκες φωλεοὺς ἔχουσιν "Foxes have holes,
καὶ τὰ πετεινὰ τοῦ οὐρανοῦ κατασκηνώσεις, and birds of the air [lit. heaven] have nests;
ὁ δὲ υἱὸς τοῦ ἀνθρώπου οὐκ ἔχει ποῦ τὴν κεφαλὴν κλίνῃ. but the Son of man has nowhere to lay his head."

The NT passages, almost identical in Luke & Matt., substitute "and birds of the heaven (sg.) have nests (that is, places to live)" for "... or lair to lurk in (or duck into. bow ones head inside)."

Plutarch has Tiberius G. say a lot about the soldiers getting free air and light, which could be interpreted as meaning they are living like birds, yet the corresponding passage in Matt. & Luke says "birds of the heaven (sg.)," and not birds of the air.

While Plutarch has T. G. speak of "lairs to lurk in" he ends the passage by saying that instead of caves and lairs to lurk (rest) in he says that the Roman foot soldiers do not even get a clump of dirt. Perhaps the suggestion is being made that they sleep on the ground, but I am not sure of that.

FWIW.

DCH
Last edited by DCHindley on Sun Mar 18, 2018 6:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Ben C. Smith
Posts: 8994
Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2015 2:18 pm
Location: USA
Contact:

Re: Sator Square

Post by Ben C. Smith »

DCHindley wrote: Sun Mar 18, 2018 4:49 pm Well, I decided to look up the quote attributed to Tiberius Gracchus in Plutarch's Life of Tiberius Gracchus 9.4-5, and give it here, along with the NT gospel passages which uses similar phraseology....
Good one. There are also parallels to this passage among the Cynics (collected from various books by F. G. Downing):

Diogenes Laertius, Lives of Eminent Philosophers 6.2.22: 22 Through watching a mouse running about, says Theophrastus in the Megarian dialogue, not looking for a place to lie down in, not afraid of the dark, not seeking any of the things which are considered to be dainties, he discovered the means of adapting himself to circumstances. He was the first, say some, to fold his cloak because he was obliged to sleep in it as well, and he carried a wallet to hold his victuals, and he used any place for any purpose, for breakfasting, sleeping, or conversing. And then he would say, pointing to the portico of Zeus and the Hall of Processions, that the Athenians had provided him with places to live in.

Diogenes Laertius, Lives of Eminent Philosophers 6.2.38: 38 He dedicated to Asclepius a bruiser who, whenever people fell on their faces, used to run up to them and bruise them. All the curses of tragedy, he used to say, had lighted upon him. At all events he was "a homeless exile, to his country dead, a wanderer who begs his daily bread." But he claimed that to fortune he could oppose courage, to convention nature, to passion reason. When he was sunning himself in the Craneum, Alexander came and stood over him and said, "Ask of me any boon you like." To which he replied, "Stand out of my light." Some one had been reading aloud for a very long time, and when he was near the end of the roll pointed to a space with no writing on it. "Cheer up, my men," cried Diogenes ; "there's land in sight." To one who by argument had proved conclusively that he had horns, he said, touching his forehead, "Well, I for my part don't see any."

Arrian, Discourses of Epictetus 4.38.31: 31 I've no property, no house, no wife nor children, not even a straw mattress, or a shirt, or cooking pot.

Dio Chrysostom, Orations 40.2: 2 A second reason is that, in my opinion, I should take some thought, not only for my body, exhausted as it is from great and unremitting hardship, but also for my domestic affairs, now in thoroughly bad condition, affairs which, though so long in ruinous state, have met with no improvement. p111 For when a proprietor's absence from home, if protracted, suffices to ruin even the greatest estate, what should one expect in the course of so many years of exile? From such an exile no one could have expected me to come home safe except yourselves — because of your extreme partiality for me. And yet as long as poverty was the only risk confronting me, that was nothing to be afraid of. For I am not unprepared, I may say, to cope with that, having wandered so long, not only without hearth and home, but even without a single servant to bear me company. Furthermore, I did not expect my son to find poverty a grievous thing to bear either, since his nature is not inferior to my own.

ΤΙ ΕΣΤΙΝ ΑΛΗΘΕΙΑ
User avatar
DCHindley
Posts: 3434
Joined: Mon Oct 07, 2013 9:53 am
Location: Ohio, USA

Re: Sator Square

Post by DCHindley »

rakovsky wrote: Sun Mar 18, 2018 2:43 pmAre there any other examples from Roman times of square anagram puzzles like this one could be, where several words are stacked on top to form a square and can be decrypted as an anagram?
I was unable to find anything *online,* but as most know, what is online is constant repetition of the same phrases, usually derived from some public domain source from 1900 without attributed.

The SATOR (or ROTAS) square is something called a "Roman Square," which is different from a "Magic Square" (where the square can be used to demonstrate some of the less well known properties of numbers). I noticed that there are no cases of the Roman numerals I, V, X, L or C, making it unlikely it was a magic Square (and I am not suggesting that you have ever said this). In the late 4th century the SATOR square begins to be found in inscriptions, as opposed to a graffito, and were all the rage medieval times. Even so, we have an example of a graffito from Pompeii.

I still want to check archive.com for the keyword SATOR or ROTAS to see if I can learn more about actual examples.

DCH
User avatar
DCHindley
Posts: 3434
Joined: Mon Oct 07, 2013 9:53 am
Location: Ohio, USA

Re: Sator Square

Post by DCHindley »

rakovsky,

Here is a kind of quirky summary of medieval examples of the SATOR square and what the wonks with an interest in medieval "magic" and Jewish kabbalah (the concepts are closely inked in medieval times) think the thing symbolizes. They do not appear to be aware of the SATOR graffiti of Pompeii and Rome.

'THE SATOR-ACROSTIC' by J. M. MCBRYDE, JR.
MODERN LANGUAGE NOTES, Vol. xxii, No. 8, December 1907.
https://ia801702.us.archive.org/19/item ... 916980.pdf

Despite this, there is the author's comment:
"The most satisfactory explanation I have been able to discover for this perplexing acrostic is that given by S. Liddell MacGregor Mathers, The Key of Solomon (Clavicula Salomonis), translated and edited from B. M. MS. Lansdowne 1202, London, 1889, p. 59, fig. 12. [this is still available in reprints]

"[image omitted]

Figure 12. The Second Pentacle of Saturn. This Pentacle is of great value against adversities; and of especial use in repressing the pride of the Spirits."

"Editor's Note. This is the celebrated
SATOR
AREPO
TENET
OPERA
ROTAS
the most perfect existing form of double acrostic, as far as the arrangement of the letters is concerned; it is repeatedly mentioned in the records of mediaeval Magic; and, save to very few, its derivation from the present Pentacle has been unknown. It will be seen at a glance that it is a square of five, giving twenty-five letters, which added to unity gives twenty-six, the numerical value of IHVH."
Queue Mr Alias .... <drum roll>

DCH
Secret Alias
Posts: 18757
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2015 8:47 am

Re: Sator Square

Post by Secret Alias »

remember I don't believe in this stuff. I just think that ancients believed in this nonsense so we have to take it seriously
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
User avatar
DCHindley
Posts: 3434
Joined: Mon Oct 07, 2013 9:53 am
Location: Ohio, USA

Re: Sator Square

Post by DCHindley »

Ah hah!

There was another word square at Pompeii/Herculaneum:
POMPEII AND HERCULANEUM A SOURCEBOOK Second edition Alison E. Cooley and M.G.L. Cooley (2004/2014, pg 107-108)
https://ia800102.us.archive.org/33/item ... 014%5D.pdf

R O M A
O L I M
M I L O
A M O R

Roma = Rome; olim = once; amor = love; Milo is a man’s name.

CIL IV 8297
DCH
Post Reply