The Meaning of 'Apostolic'

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Secret Alias
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The Meaning of 'Apostolic'

Post by Secret Alias »

See previous posts. I think I have figured something out

Greek ικός "in the manner of; pertaining to." Poetikos mean "in the manner of a poet". In general, -ikos meant "in the manner of", "pertaining to", or "of".

Latin icus m belonging to derived from of or pertaining to; connected with

But I've read in numerous sources that ικός derives from εἰκός (= like)

This would suggest to me at least that the Aramaic/Hebrew equivalent would be the prefix kaf. So here is my point. The idea of being 'like Moses' is central to both Samaritanism and Judaism. In Judaism - mimosheh l'mosheh, lo kam k'mosheh – from Moses to Moses, there was no one like Moses (i.e. Maimonides was like a second Moses.

Among the Samaritans 'the apostle' is the most common terminology for Moses. He is simply 'the Apostle.' But in the same way as they waited for a second Moses or one like Moses they necessarily also waited for one who was 'apostle-like.'

Here is another passage from Maimonides
At the Red Sea, Moses our teacher saw the Lord as a 'man of war' engaged in battle (Exodus 15:3); and upon Sinai clothed like a Deputy (כשליח) of the Congregation wrapt in his surplice (Exodus 19:19), meaning that He has no likeness or form.
Putting aside the obvious misrepresentation of the situation on Sinai by Moses2 the idea that Moses partook of God's 'apostlehood' or apostolic nature means that Paul himself (or 'the Christian apostle') was likely partaking in a pre-established understanding of what 'apostolic' meant.

The שליח צבור = apostle of the congregation is a technical term that is still in use in the Jewish community for the reader of that community.
Last edited by Secret Alias on Mon Feb 19, 2018 4:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Secret Alias
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Re: The Meaning of 'Apostolic'

Post by Secret Alias »

משנה ברכות ה׳:ה׳ (ה) המתפלל וטעה סימן רע לו. ואם שליח צבור הוא סימן רע לשולחיו מפני ששלוחו של אדם כמותו.

Mishnah Berakhot 5:5
(5) One who is praying, and makes a mistake, it is a bad omen for him; and if he was a delegate of the congregation, it is a bad omen for his delegators [the congregation], because a person's messenger is [considered] like oneself.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Secret Alias
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Re: The Meaning of 'Apostolic'

Post by Secret Alias »

Another important thing that emerges from this discussion is that I can't see any difference in meaning originally between 'apostle' and 'evangelist.' At the start of Christianity - i.e. at the time of Paul - they were synonyms or at least roughly synonymous. It basically means someone who acted as a courier or a messenger. So 'messianically' or in a messianic/Mosaic sense Moses or the one like Moses was at once an apostle and/or an evangelist. The notion that Paul wasn't an evangelist is untenable. When he said he was THE apostle, when he said he was an apostle he was at once an evangelist. The term evangelist or evangelic can't have excluded apostle or apostolic or vice versa. They were characteristics of Moses as he went to the enslaved Israelites in Egypt and announced the word of Yahweh. The sense that 'evangelic' had originally something to do with gospel writing is untenable. This came later undoubtedly as a way of 'boxing' or limiting Paul's role in early Christianity apparently owing to a claim/a desire that he didn't write a/the gospel. But this seems to be more orthodox trickery than something inherent or native to the original terminology.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Secret Alias
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Re: The Meaning of 'Apostolic'

Post by Secret Alias »

It was probably therefore used as a synonym for those who were often called apostles in the broader sense of the term. Philip, called 'the evangelist' in the Acts, was spoken of in later traditions as 'the apostle'; Timothy is included in the general use of the term “apostle' in one place, and seems to be called an evangelist in another.https://books.google.com/books?id=L6tOA ... ym&f=false
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Secret Alias
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Re: The Meaning of 'Apostolic'

Post by Secret Alias »

Another curiosity is that כשליח = 358 = משיח or messiah. This is very significant. The understanding that messiah and snake (in the garden of Eden) is well known. But this is interesting. In other words, it turns the logic of messianism into math. To be 'apostolic' to be 'apostle-like' or 'as an apostle' is to be a messiah and anointed one.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Secret Alias
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Re: The Meaning of 'Apostolic'

Post by Secret Alias »

The term appears over and over again in Marqe

דבר יצא כשליח מהיר, כבוד נפרס, עצמה עמדה, מה שאלה עשו לאלה עשו
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Stuart
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Re: The Meaning of 'Apostolic'

Post by Stuart »

The Christian sense is a bit different than the Jewish. Apostle (ἀπόστολος) in the earliest days seems to have been interchangeable with bishop (ἐπισκοπός) and (great) teacher/minister (διακονίας).

Acts 1:20 refers to the replacement of Judas as one of the twelve Apostles by referring to Psalm (LXX 108.8) 'let another take his overseer position' (ἐπισκοπὴν) and of course that could be translated bishop. The verse is of course "late" as NT texts go, showing concern about apostolic succession, using lots to imply divine selection (much as to this day with succession of Popes). But in Acts these Apostles do not behave as bishops in settled churches, but as teachers wandering about.

We see the equation of teacher with Apostle in the somewhat earlier 1 Corinthians 3:4 where Apollos is treated as an equal to Paul as a primary teacher of Christ:
Who is Apollos? And who is Paul? Teachers through whom you believed, and each as the Lord gave to.
τί οὗν ἐστιν Ἀπολλῶς; τί δέ ἐστιν Παῦλος; διάκονοι δι᾽ ὧν ἐπιστεύσατε, καὶ ἑκάστῳ ὡς ὁ κύριος ἔδωκεν.

However in 3:5 we see his position seems to have come about after Paul, much as Apelles was supposedly a student of Marcion and thus after, as 'Paul plants' and 'Apollos waters' (ἐγὼ ἐφύτευσα, Ἀπολλῶς ἐπότισεν). So again succession is possibly in view, and this case as teachers (διάκονοι) being the role of Apostles. But as we see in the Gospels an Apostle is far above a student or disciple, and seems to be the leader of sect or community (the latter especially later when the church formalizes), through whom you believed. And that last point fits exactly what a sect leaders role would be, to expound their system to which the followers hold.

In my blog post on the subject some years ago, I made the case that Marcion himself, using Paul as his alter ego, invented the term bishop to describe and justify his own position, much as the proto-Orthodox invented the position of elder. E.C. Blackman advanced this very position, as remarked in Footnote 48 by Robert Pretty's English translation of Dialogue Adamantius (1.9)
This is an important statement [by Megethius]. Along with the following remark of Adamantius, it shows that the Marcionites had established an Order of Bishops. Whether Marcion himself was called "Bishop" (ἐπισκοπός) in his lifetime is, however, uncertain. E.C. Blackman (Marcion and His Influence, London, 1948, p.5) thinks it is probable that Marcion himself instituted the order of bishops, as well as those of presbyters and deacons, since these are mentioned by Paul - Marcion's teacher and guide. (1)

While the etymology of the term Apostle in Hebrew is interesting, it is not likely very relevant in the meaning of the term as it came to be used by even the earliest Christians. It was immediately embroiled in the controversy for titles and authority between competing sects. The terms thus took on, apparently from the very moment ink to papyrus of NT, specific authoritative roles within the Christian structure. There does not seem to be the same concept of Apostle as sectarian leader and teacher and overseer/bishop within the Jewish Palestinian tradition. Perhaps the role derived from the Monastic tradition of the Alexandrian Theraputae sect, following a more Buddhist model of wandering preacher and beggar interchangeable with community leader - but this entire sentence is entirely speculative and without research to support it.

Footnote:
(1) I disagree with Blackman on the position that elders (πρεσβυτέρων) where invented by Marcion. Quite the contrary, I think they were positions invented by their Marcionite opponents. Irenaues in Adversus Haereses 3.2.2 affirms their role in apostolic succession and again in 4.26.2. In fact I am of the opinion, based on a complete lack of attestation of the term appearing even once in Marcion's Apostolikon, that the term was not present in his Gospel or Pauline letters. Much as Marcion invented Bishop, the proto-Orthodox invented other positions for authority - as evidenced by the rejection of those holding that title by most heretical sects.
Last edited by Stuart on Wed Feb 21, 2018 5:18 pm, edited 2 times in total.
“’That was excellently observed’, say I, when I read a passage in an author, where his opinion agrees with mine. When we differ, there I pronounce him to be mistaken.” - Jonathan Swift
Secret Alias
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Re: The Meaning of 'Apostolic'

Post by Secret Alias »

But isn't the use of the term 'apostle' still similar given that it still means effective 'leader.' It doesn't have that sense in (native) Greek.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Stuart
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Re: The Meaning of 'Apostolic'

Post by Stuart »

https://www.studylight.org/lexicons/greek/649.html -- note the Hebrew equivalents are not those you select above
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostle

Seems to be much more related to ambassador (weak IMO, as πρεσβεύω is different root) or envoy/emissary (stronger IMO), as one sent out apart (ἀπὸ), and also similar to the second part (στέλλω); combined it's "one who is sent off." This is very much a word chosen that matches the mission or description. It's Greek root word not Hebrew here.

The leadership aspect seems to be the element added by Marcion (or his followers at a latter date who gave the legend of their founder that title which other succeeded) in attaching it to his Bishop-hood, which is acknowledged by his opponents (DA 1.9 below):

Megethius states: “Marcion is my bishop” (ἐπισκοπός μου / episcopus meus).
Adamanius replies: "Since the death of Marcion, there have been so many successor bishops (τοσούτων ἐπισκόπων / tot episcopi) among you, or rather pseudo-bishops (ψευδεπισκόπων / pseudoepisccopi): why then have you not been named after the successors, instead of after the schismatic Marcion?"

This concept seems to have been accepted in Acts 1:14-20, and applied to what are now settled positions in the church. The difference being the Catholics derive authority from the twelve, the Marcionites and other Heretics from Paul. But again this leader is a secondary development, which reflects a change in the church from one of purely missionary expansion, to one of consolidation of new assemblies scattered around the Empire.
“’That was excellently observed’, say I, when I read a passage in an author, where his opinion agrees with mine. When we differ, there I pronounce him to be mistaken.” - Jonathan Swift
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