''Week of Jesus the Son'' and 'Jesus Barabbas'

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
User avatar
Giuseppe
Posts: 13903
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:37 am
Location: Italy

Re: ''Week of Jesus the Son'' and 'Jesus Barabbas'

Post by Giuseppe »

Secret Alias wrote: Fri Feb 02, 2018 10:42 pm Idel says there was an eschatological aspect to the event

It is worth mentioning that the redemption of the son already has eschatological significance in the Talmud , Bava Kamma fol. 80a; it is referred to there as yesu'at ha-ben; the remarks of the Tosaphistic authors on this passage allude to an eschatological aspect
Is 'yesu' our 'Jesus' here?
Much as it troubles me to say this Giuseppe has found something important.
I don't. It's merit of the old mythicist J. M. Robertson.
Can you clear if really the 'Week of the Son'' was called also ''Jesus ('salvation') the Son'' ?

If the answer is yes, I can't imagine about the effects... :shock:
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
User avatar
MrMacSon
Posts: 8877
Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 3:45 pm

Re: ''Week of Jesus the Son'' and 'Jesus Barabbas'

Post by MrMacSon »


There's some interesting commentary there that aligns with Richard Carrier's propositions about Zecharian and what Philo might have thought about that too, and some other interesting contexts -

.
. . . . . As it is, we may at least argue for a connection between the Judaic "Jesus the Son" and the traditional "Jesus the Son of the Father".

Beyond conjectures we cannot at present go; but the significance given to the name Jeshua, the priest of the Return, in the book of Zechariah [Zech iii 1-6; vi, 10-12], at a time when the book of Joshua did not exist, tells of a Messianic idea so associated [with] when Messianism was but beginning among the Jews. And, as the Messianic idea seems to have come to them, as it fittingly might, during the time of exile, perhaps from the old Babylonian source of the myth of the returning Hammurabi -- who, in his own code, declares himself the Saviour-Shepherd and the King of Righteousness4 -- or from the later Mazdean doctrine that the Saviour Saoshyant, the as yet unborn Son of Zathustra, is, at the end of time, to raise the dead and destroy Ahriman6 ...

What is important in this connection is the fact that the doctrine of a suffering messiah gradually developed among the Jews, for the most part outside the canonical literature. For the doctrine that "the Christ must needs have suffered" [Acts xvii, 3; xxvi, 23; Cp. Luke xxvi, 26, 46] can be scriptually supported only from passages like the fifty-third chapter of Isaiah, where our A. V. alters the past tense to the present, thus making a description of Israel's past sufferings serve as a mystic type. Cyrus, who is called Messiah in Deutero-Isaiah, was reputed to have been crucified, but not in his Messiah capacity. The presumption then is that the doctrine was extra-canonical, and was set up by Gentile example ... The first clear trace of the [Messiah doctrine] appears to be in the doctrine that of Messiahs, en Joseph and Ben David, Ben Joseph is to be slain ... there are clear Gentile parallels.

An obvious precedent ... lay in the Greek myth of the crucified Prometheus ... the most likely pagan prototype is..the slain and resurgent Dionysos, one of whose chief names was Eleuthereos, the Liberator, who was specifically signalised as the God "born again". As the Jewish Messiah was to be primarily a 'deliver', like the series of national heroes in the book of Judges, a popular God so entitled was most likely to impress the imagination of the dispersed Jews and their proselytites. The same epithet, indeed, may well have attached to ancient deities such as Samson, who is a a variant of the deliverer Herakles, and was one of the deliverers of the pseudo-history, as well as to the 'original Jesus' whose myth is 'Evemerised' in Joshua .. // .. a proximate motive .. to account for ... the post-exilic or post-Maccabean revival of such conceptions in a cult form; and it is to be found in the prevailing religious conceptions of the surrounding Hellenistic civilisation, where, next to Zeus, the gogs most in evidence were Dionysos and Herakles, and the Son-sacrificing Kronos.

Pagan Christs : studies in comparative hierology by Robertson, J. M.. 1913; pp. 166-7. https://archive.org/stream/paganchrists ... 6/mode/2up
.

Last edited by MrMacSon on Sat Feb 03, 2018 10:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
andrewcriddle
Posts: 2851
Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 12:36 am

Re: ''Week of Jesus the Son'' and 'Jesus Barabbas'

Post by andrewcriddle »

Giuseppe wrote: Sat Feb 03, 2018 1:20 am
Secret Alias wrote: Fri Feb 02, 2018 10:42 pm Idel says there was an eschatological aspect to the event

It is worth mentioning that the redemption of the son already has eschatological significance in the Talmud , Bava Kamma fol. 80a; it is referred to there as yesu'at ha-ben; the remarks of the Tosaphistic authors on this passage allude to an eschatological aspect
Is 'yesu' our 'Jesus' here?
Much as it troubles me to say this Giuseppe has found something important.
I don't. It's merit of the old mythicist J. M. Robertson.
Can you clear if really the 'Week of the Son'' was called also ''Jesus ('salvation') the Son'' ?

If the answer is yes, I can't imagine about the effects... :shock:
The word is yesu'at salvation this is obviously related to the Hebrew word for Jesus/Joshua but does not seem to be used here as a proper name.

Andrew Criddle
User avatar
Giuseppe
Posts: 13903
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:37 am
Location: Italy

Re: ''Week of Jesus the Son'' and 'Jesus Barabbas'

Post by Giuseppe »

andrewcriddle wrote: Sat Feb 03, 2018 5:13 am
Giuseppe wrote: Sat Feb 03, 2018 1:20 am
Secret Alias wrote: Fri Feb 02, 2018 10:42 pm Idel says there was an eschatological aspect to the event

It is worth mentioning that the redemption of the son already has eschatological significance in the Talmud , Bava Kamma fol. 80a; it is referred to there as yesu'at ha-ben; the remarks of the Tosaphistic authors on this passage allude to an eschatological aspect
Is 'yesu' our 'Jesus' here?
Much as it troubles me to say this Giuseppe has found something important.
I don't. It's merit of the old mythicist J. M. Robertson.
Can you clear if really the 'Week of the Son'' was called also ''Jesus ('salvation') the Son'' ?

If the answer is yes, I can't imagine about the effects... :shock:
The word is yesu'at salvation this is obviously related to the Hebrew word for Jesus/Joshua but does not seem to be used here as a proper name.
however there is a reference to "the Son" who seems clearly not a generic concept but an autonomous entity. What if is himself - the "Son" - the "salvation" ? In this way the term would cease to be a generic term and would be the proper name of the "Son".
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
User avatar
DCHindley
Posts: 3440
Joined: Mon Oct 07, 2013 9:53 am
Location: Ohio, USA

Re: ''Week of Jesus the Son'' and 'Jesus Barabbas'

Post by DCHindley »

Giuseppe wrote: Sat Feb 03, 2018 5:23 am
andrewcriddle wrote: Sat Feb 03, 2018 5:13 am
Giuseppe wrote: Sat Feb 03, 2018 1:20 am
Secret Alias wrote: Fri Feb 02, 2018 10:42 pm Idel says there was an eschatological aspect to the event

It is worth mentioning that the redemption of the son already has eschatological significance in the Talmud , Bava Kamma fol. 80a; it is referred to there as yesu'at ha-ben; the remarks of the Tosaphistic authors on this passage allude to an eschatological aspect
Is 'yesu' our 'Jesus' here?
Much as it troubles me to say this Giuseppe has found something important.
I don't. It's merit of the old mythicist J. M. Robertson.
Can you clear if really the 'Week of the Son'' was called also ''Jesus ('salvation') the Son'' ?

If the answer is yes, I can't imagine about the effects... :shock:
The word is yesu'at salvation this is obviously related to the Hebrew word for Jesus/Joshua but does not seem to be used here as a proper name.
however there is a reference to "the Son" who seems clearly not a generic concept but an autonomous entity. What if is himself - the "Son" - the "salvation" ? In this way the term would cease to be a generic term and would be the proper name of the "Son".
It is because the moon, which is beyond the air, is made of green cheese. Green cheese has mold, from which we make penicillin, and this green cheese saves the newborn, after it has been taken for a week. Duh!

g, please stop spinning these wild theories where the most innoculous things are made to carry extremely deep alternative meanings. That goes for you too, Stephan.

DCH
User avatar
Giuseppe
Posts: 13903
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:37 am
Location: Italy

Re: ''Week of Jesus the Son'' and 'Jesus Barabbas'

Post by Giuseppe »

DCHindley wrote: Sat Feb 03, 2018 7:07 am It is because the moon, which is beyond the air, is made of green cheese. Green cheese has mold, from which we make penicillin, and this green cheese saves the newborn, after it has been taken for a week. Duh!
I see that you join Ehrman in the contempt of mythicism.
g, please stop spinning these wild theories where the most innoculous things are made to carry extremely deep alternative meanings. That goes for you too, Stephan.
You doesn't answer my question:

Can the 'Salvation of the Son'' be translated also ''Jesus ('salvation') the Son'' ?

Why there is in the Gospels a ''Jesus the Son'' (of the Father) - ''Barabbas'' -, too, in what seems to have any trait of a sacrifice ritual drama?
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
User avatar
DCHindley
Posts: 3440
Joined: Mon Oct 07, 2013 9:53 am
Location: Ohio, USA

Re: ''Week of Jesus the Son'' and 'Jesus Barabbas'

Post by DCHindley »

Giuseppe wrote: Sat Feb 03, 2018 7:18 am
DCHindley wrote: Sat Feb 03, 2018 7:07 am It is because the moon, which is beyond the air, is made of green cheese. Green cheese has mold, from which we make penicillin, and this green cheese saves the newborn, after it has been taken for a week. Duh!
I see that you join Ehrman in the contempt of mythicism.
g, please stop spinning these wild theories where the most innoculous things are made to carry extremely deep alternative meanings. That goes for you too, Stephan.
You doesn't answer my question:

Can the 'Salvation of the Son'' be translated also ''Jesus ('salvation') the Son'' ?

Why there is in the Gospels a ''Jesus the Son'' (of the Father) - ''Barabbas'' -, too, in what seems to have any trait of a sacrifice ritual drama?
Until I can open the document you linked to I cannot tell what I would be commenting on. On the face of it, "salvation of the son" does not mean "Jesus the son," unless one were being highly speculative. There are a LOT of authors covering a wide range of topics in the Project Gutenberg site.

That quote in your OP apparently came from The Jesus Problem: A Restatement Of The Myth Theory, by J. M. Robertson, 1917.
https://ia800206.us.archive.org/29/item ... 296147.pdf

Andrew seems to have picked up on this, as he also refers to Robertson's Pagan Christs (1911).
https://archive.org/download/paganchris ... 00robe.pdf

To me, this latter is Freke & Gandy* or Frazer** style speculation, which assumes Jungian type "archetypes" imprinted in the genetic makeup of the human brain that are expressed as universal myths, more imaginative than helpful. While Robertson was expanding on this theme in Jesus Problem, to prove that the figure of Jesus was one of these universal myths, I do not think he has proved anything.

DCH

* The Jesus Mysteries: Was the "Original Jesus" a Pagan God? (1999)
** The Golden Bough: A study in comparative religion (1890 and reprinted with and without footnotes in dozens of editions)
User avatar
Giuseppe
Posts: 13903
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:37 am
Location: Italy

Re: ''Week of Jesus the Son'' and 'Jesus Barabbas'

Post by Giuseppe »

DCHindley wrote: Sat Feb 03, 2018 7:36 am To me, this latter is Freke & Gandy* or Frazer** style speculation, which assumes Jungian type "archetypes" imprinted in the genetic makeup of the human brain that are expressed as universal myths, more imaginative than helpful. While Robertson was expanding on this theme in Jesus Problem, to prove that the figure of Jesus was one of these universal myths, I do not think he has proved anything.

DCH

* The Jesus Mysteries: Was the "Original Jesus" a Pagan God? (1999)
** The Golden Bough: A study in comparative religion (1890 and reprinted with and without footnotes in dozens of editions)
You are surely correct in this judgment. But even so, I suspect that there is something of true behind the J.M.Robertson's claim that the First Gospel was a ''mystery-play'' that 'euhemerized', more than a previous celestial Jesus, a previous sacrifice ritual.

Jesus, from the Triumphal Entry to the Resurrection, is doing precisely what these secret rituals assumed:

1) the period of absolute license given to the victim,
2) his replacement of the king or of the son of the king (see the continue replacements of Jesus with Barabbas, Simon of Cyrene and maybe others)
3) his death by crucifixion
4) his resurrection.

So I think that it is strongly dangerous to declass Robertson's scholarship to the level of Freke & Gandy, Frazer, Acharya etc.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
User avatar
MrMacSon
Posts: 8877
Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 3:45 pm

Re: ''Week of Jesus the Son'' and 'Jesus Barabbas'

Post by MrMacSon »

DCHindley wrote: Sat Feb 03, 2018 7:36 am
Andrew seems to have picked up on this, as he also refers to Robertson's Pagan Christs (1911).
https://archive.org/download/paganchris ... 00robe.pdf

To me, this latter is Freke & Gandy* or Frazer** style speculation ...
I think it might be better than that (though I haven't read Freke & Gandy). Robertson acknowledges he is conjecturing with "Beyond conjectures we cannot at present go" yet then seems to give what I think is pretty good eisegesis [see my previous post on this page a few hours ago]
User avatar
MrMacSon
Posts: 8877
Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 3:45 pm

Re: ''Week of Jesus the Son'' and 'Jesus Barabbas'

Post by MrMacSon »

Giuseppe wrote: Thu Feb 01, 2018 9:32 am
...there was a Jewish ritual " Week of the Son, or, as some call it, Jesus the Son," in connection with the circumcision and redemption of the first-born child.
https://www.gutenberg.org/files/53616/5 ... 3616-h.htm
DCHindley wrote: Sat Feb 03, 2018 7:36 am
That quote in your OP apparently came from The Jesus Problem: A Restatement Of The Myth Theory, by J. M. Robertson, 1917.
https://ia800206.us.archive.org/29/item ... 296147.pdf
.
Yes, it is. The full context is '§ 2. The Sacrificial Rite' which Robertson opens with a discussion of the crucifixion as essentially a sacrifice in the Christian record.

§ 2. The Sacrificial Rite

... “The essence of the Sacrament is not merely partaking of a common cup or a common meal, but feasting upon a sacrifice ... and this was found everywhere among Jews and Gentiles.”19 Thus the term “Eucharist,” which means “thanksgiving” or “thank-offering,” applied in the Teaching of the Twelve Apostles to the kind of sacrament there indicated, and thence taken by Justin and other Fathers, is clearly a misnomer for the thing specified in the gospels. Of the gospel sacrifice, the sacrament is the liturgical and symbolic application.20 Or, otherwise, the crucifixion is the fulfilment of the theory of the sacrament. On the view of the historicity of the former, or of both, it would be necessary to show why the procedure set forth in the gospels so closely simulated a human sacrifice; and this is incidentally attempted in passing by M. Loisy. The scene of derision by the soldiers, he says, “was perhaps connected with some pagan festival usage.”21 But this at once admits the entrance of the myth-theory, which affirms that an immemorial “festival” usage is indicated. If Jesus was executed to please the Jewish multitude, as is the view even of the most destructive of the later German exegetes22— why should the execution take a pagan form? M. Loisy, who had previously accepted as history the narrative of the Entry into Jerusalem, with the public acclamation of Jesus as “the Son of David,” is unprepared to believe with the German critic that within a week the multitude cried “Crucify him!”; and he therefore wholly eliminates that item from his biographical sketch. He implies, however, that the doom of Jesus was passed by Pilate to please the priests, which is equally fatal to the thesis of a pagan festival usage. He accepts, further, the scene of the Mocking, with no ostensible critical reason, but presumably in order to establish a history which would explain the subsequent growth of the cult. In this process the salient episode of Barabbas is dismissed by him as unhistorical.23 Thus the most distinguished critic of the biographical school has no account to give of a second salient item in the record which, being entirely non-supernatural, must be held to have been inserted for some strong reason. It in fact closely involves the whole myth-theory.

Barabbas was in all probability a regular figure in Semitic popular religion; and the name connects documentarily with that of Jesus. The reading “Jesus Barabbas,” in Mt. xxvii, 16, as we have noted,24 was long the accepted one in the ancient Church; and its entrance and its disappearance are alike significant. It is obviously probable that such a name as “Jesus the Son of the Father” (= Bar-Abbas25), applied to a murderer, would give an amount of offence to early Christian readers which would naturally lead in time to its elimination from the current text.26 But on that view there is no explanation of its entrance. Such a stumbling-block could not have been set up without a compulsive reason. The anthropological and hierological data go to show that an annual sacrifice of a “Son of the Father” was a long-standing feature in the Semitic world. A story in Philo Judæus about a mummery in Alexandria in ridicule of the Jewish King Agrippa, the grandson of Herod, points pretty clearly to a local Jewish survival from that usage. A lunatic named Karabas is said to have been paraded as a mock-king, with mock-crown, sceptre and robe.27 In all likelihood the K is a mistranscription for B. In any case, “the custom of sacrificing the son for the father was common, if not universal, among Semitic peoples,”28 as among others; and the Passover29 was originally a sacrifice of firstlings, human and animal,30 the former being probably most prevalent in times of disaster. “Devotion” was the principle: surrogate sacrifices would normally be substituted. Sacrifice of a king’s son, in particular, was held to be of overwhelming efficacy by early Hebrews and other Semites, as among other races in the savage and barbaric stages.31

J. M. Robertson. The Jesus Problem / A Restatement of the Myth Theory (Kindle Locations 572-611).


Later the passage that Giuseppe quoted comes -

§ 2. The Sacrificial Rite
.
.
What does emerge from the gospel narrative concerning Barabbas and Jesus is, not that such an episode happened (here the myth-theory is at one with M. Loisy, who in effect pronounces the narrative to be myth) but that in the first age of Christianity the name “Jesus Barabbas” was well known, and stood for something well known. It was certainly known to the Jews, for we have Talmudical mention, dating from a period just after the fall of the Temple, that there was a Jewish ritual “Week of the Son, or, as some call it, Jesus the Son,” in connection with the circumcision and redemption of the first-born child.47

From the inference of the currency of the name there is no escape: attached to a robber and murderer it could never have got into the gospels otherwise. And the myth-theory can supply the explanation which neither the orthodox nor the biographical theory can yield. We have outside evidence that a sacrifice of a “Son of the Father” was customary in parts of the Semitic world. What the gospel story proves is that it was known to have been a practice, either at Jerusalem or elsewhere, to release a prisoner to the multitude in connection with a popular festival, which might or might not have been the Passover. The release may have been for the purpose either of a religious masquerade or of a sacrifice. Either way, the religious rite involved was a rite of “Jesus Barabbas”— Jesus the Son of the Father— and it involved either a real or a mock sacrifice, in which the “Son” figured as a mock king, with robe and crown.

The more the problem is considered, then, the more clear becomes the solution. As soon as the Jesuist cult reached the stage of propaganda in which it described its Son-God as having died, in circumstances of ignominy, as an atoning sacrifice, it would be met by the memory of the actual Barabbas rite. Given that the Barabbas victim was ritually scourged and “crucified” (a term which has yet to be investigated), it follows that wherever the early propaganda48 went in areas in which the memory of the rite subsisted, the Christists would be told that their Jesus the Son was simply the Jesus Barabbas of that popular rite; and the only possible— or at least the best— way to override the impeachment was to insert a narrative which reduced the regular ritual Jesus Barabbas to a single person, a criminal whom the wicked Jewish multitude had chosen to save instead of the sinless Jesus of the cult. In the circumstances given it was an absolutely necessary invention; and no other circumstances could conceivably have made it necessary. The story, by the unwilling admission of M. Loisy, who conserves whatever he thinks he critically can of the record, is a myth; and it is a myth which on the biographical theory cannot be explained. The myth-theory has explained it. As for the disappearance of the “Jesus” from the name of Barabbas in the records, it hardly needs explanation. When the memory of the old annual rite died away from general knowledge, the elision of the “Jesus” would be desirable alike for the learned who still knew and the unlearned who did not. 49

J. M. Robertson. The Jesus Problem / A Restatement of the Myth Theory (Kindle Locations 666-690).

Later again -
ROOTS OF THE MYTH

§ 1. Historical Data
.
.
we have seen that a rite of “Jesus the Son,” otherwise known as the “Week of the Son,” was actually specified by the Talmudists of the period of the fall of the Temple. Taken with the item of the name Jesus Barabbas, “Jesus the Son of the Father,” and the five-days’ duration of the ritual of the sacrificed Mock-King, it completes a body of Jewish evidence for the pre-Christian currency of the name Jesus as a cult-name of some kind. It is now possible to see at once the force of the primary thesis of Professor W. B. Smith47 that the phrase τὰ περὶ τοῦ Ἰησοῦ, “the things concerning the Jesus,” in the Gospels and the Acts,48 tells of a body of Jesus-lore of some kind prior to the gospel story; and also the significance of the fact that the narrative of the Acts represents the new apostle as finding Jesus-worshippers, albeit in small numbers, wherever he went.

J. M. Robertson. The Jesus Problem / A Restatement of the Myth Theory (Kindle Locations 1721-1729).
Post Reply