Kartagraphy Markoff. Did "Mark" Get Any Geography Right?

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Kunigunde Kreuzerin
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Re: Kartagraphy Markoff. Did "Mark" Get Any Geography Right?

Post by Kunigunde Kreuzerin »

bcedaifu wrote:
http://biblehub.com/isaiah/9-1.htm
But there shall be no more gloom for her who was in anguish. In the former time, he brought into contempt the land of Zebulun and the land of Naphtali; but in the latter time he has made it glorious, by the way of the sea, beyond the Jordan, Galilee of the nations.

Barnes' notes:
Beyond Jordan - This expression - הירדן עבר ‛ēber hayareddēn - means in the vicinity of Jordan; the land by the side of the Jordan, or perhaps that large region through which the upper part of the Jordan passed. It does not mean strictly on the east of Jordan, but rather the northern portion of the land. It is such language as a man would use who was describing the upper and imperfectly known regions of the country - the dark, uncivilized region through which the upper part of the Jordan flowed, and the word עבר ‛ēber, rendered here "beyond," means "side" - by the side of the Jordan.
Isaiah LXX 8,23 (9,1) – two important textual variants
Τοῦτο πρῶτον ποίει, ταχὺ ποίει, χώρα Ζαβουλων, ἡ γῆ Νεφθαλιμ ὁδὸν θαλάσσης (καὶ οἱ λοιποὶ οἱ τὴν παραλίαν κατοικοῦντες) καὶ πέραν τοῦ Ιορδάνου, Γαλιλαία τῶν ἐθνῶν(, τὰ μέρη τῆς Ιουδαίας).

Drink this first; do it quickly, O country of Zabulon, land of Nephthalim way/road of the sea (and the rest who inhabit the seashore) and beyond the Jordan, Galilee of the Gentiles/nations (, the parts of Judea).
The markan use of „πέραν“ and „πέραν τοῦ Ιορδάνου“

πέραν (without Jordan) - Mark 4:35; 5:1; 5:21; 6:45; 8:13 – beyond, other side
πέραν τοῦ Ιορδάνου – Mark 3:8, 10:1 – in a geographical context probably: (EDIT) Perea (and Decapolis)
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JoeWallack
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Re: Kartagraphy Markoff. Did "Mark" Get Any Geography Right?

Post by JoeWallack »

JW:

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php?title=Mark_1
1:9 And it came to pass in those days, that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized of John in the Jordan.
Now let's take a look at early Patristic commentary (or lack of) regarding the offending verse:

From another of The Young Wolf's great sights:

e-Catena Mark
Mark 1:9 - NIV, NAB - in Pseudo-Tertullian Against All Heresies

came down on Jesus;[66]
This has no reference to "Nazareth of Galilee".

The parallel verse in "Matthew":
3:13 Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to the Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him.
e-catena Matthew

Hippolytus Dogmatical and Historical Fragments = Mainly "Matthew" baptism story with no unique quote of "Mark" and no mention of Nazareth.

The parallel verse in "Luke":
3:21 Now it came to pass, when all the people were baptized, that, Jesus also having been baptized, and praying, the heaven was opened,
e-catena Luke

No mentions of Nazareth of Galilee

The parallel verse in "John":
1:29 On the morrow he seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold, the Lamb of God, that taketh away the sin of the world!
e-catena John

Obsession with "the lamb of god". No mentions of Nazareth of Galilee.

For a supposed connection (Jesus the Nazarene because he was from Nazareth) that you would think the Patristics would be interested in, if not fascinated by, no early Patristic comments. Possible reasons this Thread has developed:
  • 1) This supposed connection did not exist in the originals so early Patristics were either unaware of it or recognized it as probable addition.

    2) It was original but early Patristics had some problem with it (like Jesus being from or coming from Nazareth of Galilee to The Baptism).
The brave and truthful early Patrician Origen, probably the outstanding scholar of The Church, supports 2):

Origen. Commentary on John Book X

2. THE DISCREPANCY BETWEEN JOHN AND THE FIRST THREE GOSPELS AT THIS PART OF THE NARRATIVE, LITERALLY READ, THE NARRATIVES CANNOT BE HARMONIZED: THEY MUST BE INTERPRETED SPIRITUALLY.

The truth of these matters must lie in that which is seen by the mind. If the discrepancy between the Gospels is not solved, we must give up our trust in the Gospels, as being true and written by a divine spirit, or as records worthy of credence, for both these characters are held to belong to these works. Those who accept the four Gospels, and who do not consider that their apparent discrepancy is to be solved anagogically (by mystical interpretation), will have to clear up the difficulty, raised above, about the forty days of the temptation, a period for which no room can be found in any way in John's narrative; and they will also have to tell us when it was that the Lord came to Capernaum. If it was after the six days of the period of His baptism, the sixth being that of the marriage at Cans of Galilee, then it is clear that the temptation never took place, and that He never was at Nazara, and that John was not yet delivered up. Now, after Capernaum, where He abode not many days, the passover of the Jews was at hand, and He went up to Jerusalem, where He cast the sheep and oxen out of the temple, and poured out the small change of the bankers. In Jerusalem, too, it appears that Nicodemus, the ruler and Pharisee, first came to Him by night, and heard what we may read in the Gospel. "After these things, Jesus came, and His disciples, into the land of Judaea, and there He tarried with them and baptized, at the same time at which John also was baptizing in AEnon near Salim, because there were many waters there, and they came and were baptized; for John was not yet cast into prison." On this occasion, too, there was a questioning on the part of John's disciples with the Jews about purification, and they came to John, saying of the Saviour. "Behold, He baptizeth, and all come to Him." They had heard words from the Baptist, the exact tenor of which it is better to take from Scripture itself. Now, if we ask when Christ was first in Capernaum, our respondents, if they follow the words of Matthew, and of the other two, will say, After the temptation, when, "leaving Nazareth, He came and dwelt in Capernaum by the sea." But how can they show both the statements to be true, that of Matthew and Mark, that it was because He heard that John was delivered up that He departed into Galilee, and that of John, found there, after a number of other transactions, subsequent to His stay at Capernaum, after His going to Jerusalem, and His journey from there to Judaea, that John was not yet cast into prison, but was baptizing in AEnon near Salim? There are many other points on which the careful student of the Gospels will find that their narratives do not agree; and these we shall place before the reader, according to our power, as they occur. The student, staggered at the consideration of these things, will either renounce the attempt to find all the Gospels true, and not venturing to conclude that all our information about our Lord is untrustworthy, will choose at random one of them to be his guide; or he will accept the four, and will consider that their truth is not to be sought for in the outward and material letter.
JW:
Origen correctly points out that there is no room in "John's" version for Jesus to return to Nazareth after The Baptism. And if Jesus is returning to Nazareth per the Synoptics after The Baptism, than he came to The Baptism from Nazareth.

This may explain the lack of Patristic reference to Jesus coming to The Baptism from Nazareth as well as the early Patristic references to Nazareth being in Judea.

I also note with interest that Sinaiticus, probably the most authoritative manuscript, has Nazareth as a city of Judea in Luke 1:26.


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Tenorikuma
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Re: Kartagraphy Markoff. Did "Mark" Get Any Geography Right?

Post by Tenorikuma »

JoeWallack wrote: I also note with interest that Sinaiticus, probably the most authoritative manuscript, has Nazareth as a city of Judea in Luke 1:26.
That's very interesting. It also appears to be our earliest extant source for most of Luke chapter 1. (I can't find any earlier manuscript with that verse intact.)
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Re: Kartagraphy Markoff. Did "Mark" Get Any Geography Right?

Post by Kunigunde Kreuzerin »

Mark 7:24 Michael Turnton
Intertextually the story has echoes of the Elijah and Elisha narrative cycles. The initial story of the Elijah cycle takes place in Zeraphath (1 Kgs 17:8-24), a city that "belongs to Sidon" (1 Kings 17:8; see Mark 7:24). Elijah is commanded to "rise up" (1 Kings 17:9; LXX anastethi); see Mark 7:24, where Jesus "rose up." Then he alone meets the widow of Zarephath, and a miraculous feeding takes place....Though the healing of the son is narrated in more detail than in the case of the Syrophoenician woman's daughter, the words of the prophet take the form of a simple pronouncement: "See, your son lives" (17:23); compare Mark 7:29: "the demon has already left your daughter."( p236)
Josephus (Ant., VIII, xiii, 2)
There was now a prophet of God Almighty, of Thesbon, a country in Gilead, that came to Ahab, and said to him, that God foretold he would not send rain nor dew in those years upon the country but when he should appear. And when he had confirmed this by an oath, he departed into the southern parts, and made his abode by a brook, out of which he had water to drink; for as for his food, ravens brought it to him every day: but when that river was dried up for want of rain, he came to Zarephath, a city not far from Sidon and Tyre, for it lay between them, and this at the command of God, for [God told him] that he should there find a woman who was a widow that should give him sustenance.
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Re: Kartagraphy Markoff. Did "Mark" Get Any Geography Right?

Post by andrewcriddle »

Tenorikuma wrote:
JoeWallack wrote: I also note with interest that Sinaiticus, probably the most authoritative manuscript, has Nazareth as a city of Judea in Luke 1:26.
That's very interesting. It also appears to be our earliest extant source for most of Luke chapter 1. (I can't find any earlier manuscript with that verse intact.)
Vaticanus is of comparable age to Sinaiticus

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Re: Kartagraphy Markoff. Did "Mark" Get Any Geography Right?

Post by stephan happy huller »

Trobisch thinks Sinaiticus might not even be that old. He's not adverse to even the 7th century for the text. Private conversation
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Tenorikuma
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Re: Kartagraphy Markoff. Did "Mark" Get Any Geography Right?

Post by Tenorikuma »

I just started reading Carrier's book Proving History, and he has a section of alternate explanations for why Jesus was called a Nazarene. He notes that Mark 1.9 might be an interpolation, and that Mark seems to have Jesus hailing from Capernaum. I'm going to follow up his citations. (Does anyone have access to Journal of Biblical Literature 65 no. 2 and 66 no. 1?)
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Re: Kartagraphy Markoff. Did "Mark" Get Any Geography Right?

Post by hjalti »

Tenorikuma, have you tried creating an account on JSTOR? You can read 3 articles for free every 2 weeks IIRC.
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Tenorikuma
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Re: Kartagraphy Markoff. Did "Mark" Get Any Geography Right?

Post by Tenorikuma »

Hjalti, JSTOR has been broken for over a month now. It only returns "page not found" errors for any article I look up. Apparently this only affects some users, and JSTOR has told me it will be a while before it gets fixed.
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The Sea of Love (One Another)

Post by JoeWallack »

Brother Phillip

JW:
Moving along The Way (so to speak) our next potential geographical error in "Mark" is:

Mark 1:16
And passing along by the sea of Galilee, he saw Simon and Andrew the brother of Simon casting a net in the sea; for they were fishers.
http://biblehub.com/text/mark/1-16.htm

Strong's Transliteration Greek English Morphology
2532 [e] Kai Καὶ And Conj
3855 [e] paragōn παράγων passing V-PPA-NMS
3844 [e] para παρὰ by Prep
3588 [e] tēn τὴν the Art-AFS
2281 [e] thalassan θάλασσαν sea N-AFS
3588 [e] tēs τῆς - Art-GFS
1056 [e] Galilaias Γαλιλαίας of Galilee, N-GFS

JW:
The potential error is whether or not "Mark" has presented the Sea of Galilee as a Sea. Per Wikipedia, the Sea of Galilee is actually a lake and not a sea. A number of ancient authors also refer to it as a sea so "Mark's" use of "Sea of Galilee" can be limited to identification of location based on name and not necessarily intended to be a physical description. The related subsequent issue in "Mark" is whether "Mark's" later attached narrative communicates that this is technically a "Sea" as opposed to just a lake.

For now I'll just say that in "Matthew's" parallel story he also uses "sea" but "Luke" improves/corrects to "lake". "Matthew" in general is more likely to just copy "Mark" than "Luke".



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