The generational prophecy.

[Giuseppe]

Curiously, the failed prophecy is not found in Marcion.

[Ben C. Smith]

Curiously, the failed prophecy is not found in Marcion.

You will need to be more specific about what you mean: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1765&start=20#p39329.

[Ben C. Smith]

I think Mark 13 has indications that there is a long way to the end (preaching the gospel to all nations is going to take some time).

Look at that Marcan verse in context:

Mark 13.8-13: 8 "For nation will rise up against nation, and kingdom against kingdom; there will be earthquakes in various places; there will also be famines. These things are merely the beginning of birth pangs. 9 But be on your guard; for they will deliver you to the courts, and you will be flogged in the synagogues, and you will stand before governors and kings for My sake, as a testimony to them. 10 The gospel must first [πρῶτον] be preached to all the nations. 11 When they arrest you and hand you over, do not worry beforehand about what you are to say, but say whatever is given you in that hour; for it is not you who speak, but it is the Holy Spirit. 12 Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child; and children will rise up against parents and have them put to death. 13 You will be hated by all because of My name, but the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.

"The gospel must first be preached to all the nations." First... before what? In context, it looks like the gospel is to be preached to all nations before "you" are arrested and stand before governors and kings!

In Matthew this tension does not exist:

Matthew 24.13-14: 13 But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved. 14 This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.

This seems to specify the sense which most people read out of Mark 13.10: the gospel will be preached first, before the end will come. But Mark is missing that crucial piece of information about the end.

I know how I am tempted to explain this anomaly. How do you explain it?

[Ben C. Smith]

Curiously, the failed prophecy is not found in Marcion.

You will need to be more specific about what you mean: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1765&start=20#p39329.

And Peter has a good discussion here: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3117&p=69938#p69935.

[Paul the Uncertain]

Ben

Regardless of who wrote it, 1 Thessalonians 5: 1-11 falls far short of Mark's Jesus' more radical position (Paul's "thief in the night" himself doesn't know when he's coming?). I don't see that the passage asserts more than that the information is unavailable to Paul's followers at this time, as they themselves already "know very well."

Can we agree that Paul promised the events within a lifespan, and was also silent about precisely when? If so, then we would never need to address the interpolation issue, which we won't resolve.

I do think the answer to your question is yes, one such mind was Mark's. I also think Mark was building on Paul. Unlike Paul, however, Mark's character is asked flatly to his face, "When?" Thus, the character must make some statement on a subject Paul can simply remain silent about. "God only knows" has served nicely.

[Ben C. Smith]

A bit more from my notes on this topic....

The form of the prediction in Mark 13.19 is certainly familiar enough:

Exodus 9.18: 18 "Behold, about this time tomorrow, I will send a very heavy hail, such as has not been seen in Egypt from the day it was founded until now."

Exodus 11.6: 6 "Moreover, there shall be a great cry in all the land of Egypt, such as there has not been before and such as shall never be again."

Deuteronomy 4.32: 32 "Indeed, ask now concerning the former days which were before you, since the day that God created man on the earth, and inquire from one end of the heavens to the other. Has anything been done like this great thing, or has anything been heard like it?"

Joel 2.2: 2 A day of darkness and gloom, a day of clouds and thick darkness. As the dawn is spread over the mountains, so there is a great and mighty people; there has never been anything like it, nor will there be again after it to the years of many generations.

1 Maccabees 9.27: 27 Thus there was great distress in Israel, such as had not been since the time that prophets ceased to appear among them.

Testament of Moses 8.1: 1 And there shall come upon them a second visitation and wrath, such as has not befallen them from the beginning until that time, in which He will stir up against them the king of the kings of the earth and one that rules with great power, who shall crucify those who confess to their circumcision.

1QM, column 1, lines 11-12a: 11 The sons of light and the lot of darkness shall battle together for God's might, between the roar of a huge multitude and the shout of gods and of men, on the day of the calamity. It will be a time of 12a suffering fo[r al]l the nation redeemed by God. Of all their sufferings, none will be like this, hastening till eternal redemption is fulfilled.

Didache 16.3-4: 3 For in the last days false prophets and corrupters shall be multiplied, and the sheep shall be turned into wolves, and love shall be turned into hate; 4 for when lawlessness increaseth, they shall hate and persecute and betray one another, and then shall appear the world-deceiver as Son of God, and shall do signs and wonders, and the earth shall be delivered into his hands, and he shall do iniquitous things which have never yet come to pass since the beginning.

Revelation 16.18: 18 And there were flashes of lightning and sounds and peals of thunder; and there was a great earthquake, such as there had not been since man came to be upon the earth, so great an earthquake was it, and so mighty.

It was pretty common in some Hebraic contexts to predict an event such as had never occurred before (nor, in some cases, ever would again). In the case of Mark 13, the specific tribulation period derives, I believe it is clear, from the prophet Daniel:

Daniel 12.1: 1 "Now at that time Michael, the great prince who stands guard over the sons of your people, will arise. And that will be a day of tribulation [ἐκείνη ἡ ἡμέρα θλίψεως] such as never occurred since they were born [οἵα οὐκ ἐγενήθη ἀφ᾽ οὗ ἐγενήθησαν] until that day [ἕως τῆς ἡμέρας ἐκείνης]; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued."

Mark 13.19-20: 19 "For those days will be a tribulation [αἱ ἡμέραι ἐκεῖναι θλῖψις] such as has not occurred since the beginning of the creation [οἵα οὐ γέγονεν τοιαύτη ἀπ᾽ ἀρχῆς κτίσεως] which God created until now [ἕως τοῦ νῦν], and never shall." (20 And unless the Lord had shortened those days, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect whom He chose, He shortened the days.)

An unprecedented time of distress ought to be followed by an unprecedented eschatological event:

Daniel 12.2-3: 2 "And many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt. 3 And those who have insight will shine brightly like the brightness of the expanse of heaven, and those who lead the many to righteousness, like the stars forever and ever."

Daniel is informed that these predictions are not for his own generation:

Daniel 12.4: 4 "But as for you, Daniel, conceal these words and seal up the book until the time of the end; many will go back and forth, and knowledge will increase."

Christians, however, thought that they were already living in the "time of the end," as it were:

1 Corinthians 10.11: 11 Now these things happened to them as an example, and they were written for our instruction, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.

Revelation 22.10: 10 And he said to me, "Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near."

Mark 13.30: 30 "Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place."

This was no time to seal up the book; this was the time to unseal it, or to leave it unsealed. This generation was not going to pass away until all things had been fulfilled.

[Ben C. Smith]

Can we agree that Paul promised the events within a lifespan, and was also silent about precisely when?

I do not think that Paul promised it, necessarily. I think that he assumed it, and he was in good company, apparently. With that minor adjustment, yes, I agree.

If so, then we would never need to address the interpolation issue, which we won't resolve.

If there are interpolations in our texts, I will try to track them down. No, nothing will be absolutely resolved in a scientific sense; but that does not stop us from doing what we can do to sort the issues out.

I do think the answer to your question is yes, one such mind was Mark's. I also think Mark was building on Paul. Unlike Paul, however, Mark's character is asked flatly to his face, "When?" Thus, the character must make some statement on a subject Paul can simply remain silent about. "God only knows" has served nicely.

Where do you put Matthew in all of this? There are far more parallels between Matthew 24-25 and 1 Thessalonians 4.13-5.11 than there are between the latter and Mark 13.

[Giuseppe]

Curiously, the failed prophecy is not found in Marcion.

You will need to be more specific about what you mean: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1765&start=20#p39329.

I mean more precisely this:

Zahn omits:
[when he shall come in his own glory,
and in the glory of his Father's and of the holy angels.
27 But I tell you truly, there be some of those that stand here,
which shall by no means taste death, till they see the kingdom of God.

http://gnosis.org/library/marcion/Gospe ... eprimanded


While this is a prophecy of only the destruction (hence not a 'failed' prophecy):

32 Verily I say unto you,
The heaven and the earth shall in no wise pass away,
till all things be accomplished

21.32 (found in Mcn)
http://gnosis.org/library/marcion/Gospel5.html#Badday

The marcionite Jesus ''predicted'' only the destruction of Jerusalem and the ''time of the gentiles''. Not the coming of the Kingdom of God on this earth within the lifetime of the (false) apostles.

[Ben C. Smith]

Curiously, the failed prophecy is not found in Marcion.

You will need to be more specific about what you mean: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1765&start=20#p39329.

I mean more precisely this:

Zahn omits:
[when he shall come in his own glory,
and in the glory of his Father's and of the holy angels.
27 But I tell you truly, there be some of those that stand here,
which shall by no means taste death, till they see the kingdom of God.

http://gnosis.org/library/marcion/Gospe ... eprimanded


While this is a prophecy of only the destruction (hence not a 'failed' prophecy):

32 Verily I say unto you,
The heaven and the earth shall in no wise pass away,
till all things be accomplished

21.32 (found in Mcn)
http://gnosis.org/library/marcion/Gospel5.html#Badday

The marcionite Jesus ''predicted'' only the destruction of Jerusalem and the ''time of the gentiles''. Not the coming of the Kingdom of God on this earth within the lifetime of the (false) apostles.

The page you are using is outdated, and you evidently did not read that link I gave to Peter Kirby discussing "version 2" in Marcion.

[pavurcn]

This seems to specify the sense which most people read out of Mark 13.10: the gospel will be preached first, before the end will come. But Mark is missing that crucial piece of information about the end.

I know how I am tempted to explain this anomaly. How do you explain it?

The gospel being preached to all nations looks like an insertion that has nothing essential to do with the trial situation of the preceding and following verses. It could have been an independent pericope that got swept into this little set-piece.

Likewise, I wonder (as others have) about what the original context or reference might be for "before all these things take place" in verse 30. All what things, exactly? There seems to be a difference between (1) "in those days" (of ultimate tribulations) and (2) what you are definitely bound to see before you die (persecutions, false messiahs, wars, rumors of war) when "the end is not yet."

So my explanation is that we have a pericope collection of disparate but relatable materials. The force is ultimately the same as the parable of the seed growing secretly: things happen in stages...you can tell where you are through what is unfolding...eventually there is the end. But the original context of the pericopes is not likely what we have here, so I wouldn't try to make too tight a connection between all the verses.