Was James the original Judas?

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Giuseppe
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Was James the original Judas?

Post by Giuseppe »

The Lord said, "James, do not be concerned for me or for this people. I am he who was within me. Never have I suffered in any way, nor have I been distressed. And this people has done me no harm. But this (people) existed as a type of the archons, and it deserved to be destroyed through them. But [...] the archons, [...] who has [...] but since it [...] angry with [...] The just [...] is his servant. Therefore your name is "James the Just". You see how you will become sober when you see me. And you stopped this prayer. Now since you are a just man of God, you have embraced me and kissed me. Truly I say to you that you have stirred up great anger and wrath against yourself. But (this has happened) so that these others might come to be."
http://gnosis.org/naghamm/1ja.html

I see 2 things:

1)
But this (people) existed as a type of the archons
Was the author saying that the ''Jews'' (in the original post-70 Gospel: the real killers of Jesus) allegorized the same spiritual ''archontes of this aeon'' ? Is this a mythicist claim? Afterall, the ''Jews'' were destroyed by the same archontes of this aeon: the Pagan deities (demons for the Jews) acting behind Titus in the 70 CE.


2)
Now since you are a just man of God, you have embraced me and kissed me. Truly I say to you that you have stirred up great anger and wrath against yourself
Note the sequence of events:

1) James is Just man of God: the God who is meant is the evil Demiurge (called ''Just'' by Marcion).

2) being a man of the demiurge, James ''kissed'' Jesus: it is a real betrayal.

3) ''by kissing'' Jesus, James has ''stirred up great anger and wrath against himself'', exactly as Judas will do in the Gospels.


Therefore: the Apocalypse of James is a Gnostic writing meant to co-opt the Jewish-Christian figure of James: he does a conversion (just as Paul was a converted from the Gnosticism to the proto-Catholicism!) and now he is a Gnostic hero and icon.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
Giuseppe
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Re: Was James the original Judas?

Post by Giuseppe »

Never have I suffered in any way, nor have I been distressed. And this people has done me no harm. But this (people) existed as a type of the archons
I begin to think that these ''docetic'' claims had their value uniquely for the earthly (read: Gospel) things: Jesus was not crucified really by the Jews.

But really (see the adversative ''but'' ), Jesus ''suffered'' by hand of the ''archons'', of which ''this people'' is the type, symbol and allegory.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
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arnoldo
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Re: Was James the original Judas?

Post by arnoldo »

Giuseppe wrote: Wed Jan 17, 2018 9:16 am Therefore: the Apocalypse of James is a Gnostic writing meant to co-opt the Jewish-Christian figure of James: he does a conversion (just as Paul was a converted from the Gnosticism to the proto-Catholicism!) and now he is a Gnostic hero and icon.
Proto-orthodox adapted Marcion's writings to the Pauline writings and the same happened to the gospel writings since "James" was the original Judas. The 1st Apocalypse of James has an estimated date circa late second century early third. It's certainly possible to have a sudden explosion of narrative and counter-narrative writings in the second century concerning James, et. al. Interesting theory.
The 1st Apocalpyse of James provides us with information on the James tradition and the Gnostic redemption myth in the second or third century
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/a ... ames1.html

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arnoldo
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Re: Was James the original Judas?

Post by arnoldo »

Interestingly, the 2nd Apocalypse of James may predate the first. It also has the following account which may be based on Josephus' account of the martyrdom of James.
And I was with the priests and revealed nothing of the relationship, since all of them were saying with one voice, 'Come, let us stone the Just One.' And they arose, saying, 'Yes, let us kill this man, that he may be taken from our midst. For he will be of no use to us.'

And they were there and found him standing beside the columns of the temple beside the mighty corner stone. And they decided to throw him down from the height, and they cast him down. And they [...] they [...]. They seized him and struck him as they dragged him upon the ground. They stretched him out and placed a stone on his abdomen. They all placed their feet on him, saying 'You have erred!'
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/t ... james.html

Giuseppe
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Re: Was James the original Judas?

Post by Giuseppe »

There is no Josephus' account of the martyrdom of James (unless you mean James son of Damneus).

In the original Gospel (if my theory about James=Judas is correct), then the priests killed James/''Judas'' after the his betrayal and conversion. Therefore by killing James they killed... ...the entire Judea! (hence the pun behind ''Judas'' in later Gospels).
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
Giuseppe
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Re: Was James the original Judas?

Post by Giuseppe »

So the causal link would be the following:

1) Earliest post-70 Gospel: James kissed and betrayed Jesus, he is converted and then he is killed by the priests. Pilate punished the priests.

2) James became ''Judas'' in Mark and other proto-catholic Gospels.

3) Hegesippus corrected the version of the Earliest Gospel, by placing the James episode under Titus (now Titus is who punished the priests and Jerusalem).

4) Origen interpolated Josephus with the famous ''called Christ'', ''reading'' in Josephus the same theological idea received by Hegesippus.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
Giuseppe
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Re: Was James the original Judas?

Post by Giuseppe »

Another similarity between James and Judas:

in the our proto-catholic Gospels, Judas is the only person who can lead the guards to capture Jesus.

in Hegesippus (the editor of a previous Gnostic story about James), James is the only Christian who is called the "gate of Jesus", i.e. the only person who can lead to Jesus.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
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arnoldo
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Re: Was James the original Judas?

Post by arnoldo »

Giuseppe wrote: Thu Jan 18, 2018 1:46 am There is no Josephus' account of the martyrdom of James (unless you mean James son of Damneus).

In the original Gospel (if my theory about James=Judas is correct), then the priests killed James/''Judas'' after the his betrayal and conversion. Therefore by killing James they killed... ...the entire Judea! (hence the pun behind ''Judas'' in later Gospels).
Maybe the following is an interpolation?


Josephus on the Death of James brother of Jesus, in 62 C.E.
Josephus, Antiquities
Book 20: chapter 9


CONCERNING ALBINUS UNDER WHOSE PROCURATORSHIP JAMES WAS SLAIN; AS ALSO WHAT EDIFICES WERE BUILT BY AGRIPPA.

1. AND now Caesar, upon hearing the death of Festus, sent Albinus into Judea, as procurator. But the king deprived Joseph of the high priesthood, and bestowed the succession to that dignity on the son of Ananus, who was also himself called Ananus. Now the report goes that this eldest Ananus proved a most fortunate man; for he had five sons who had all performed the office of a high priest to God, and who had himself enjoyed that dignity a long time formerly, which had never happened to any other of our high priests. But this younger Ananus, who, as we have told you already, took the high priesthood, was a bold man in his temper, and very insolent; he was also of the sect of the Sadducees, who are very rigid in judging offenders, above all the rest of the Jews, as we have already observed; when, therefore, Ananus was of this disposition, he thought he had now a proper opportunity [to exercise his authority]. Festus was now dead, and Albinus was but upon the road; so he assembled the sanhedrin of judges, and brought before them the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James, and some others, [or, some of his companions]; and when he had formed an accusation against them as breakers of the law, he delivered them to be stoned: but as for those who seemed the most equitable of the citizens, and such as were the most uneasy at the breach of the laws, they disliked what was done; they also sent to the king [Agrippa], desiring him to send to Ananus that he should act so no more, for that what he had already done was not to be justified; nay, some of them went also to meet Albinus, as he was upon his journey from Alexandria, and informed him that it was not lawful for Ananus to assemble a sanhedrin without his consent. (24) Whereupon Albinus complied with what they said, and wrote in anger to Ananus, and threatened that he would bring him to punishment for what he had done; on which king Agrippa took the high priesthood from him, when he had ruled but three months, and made Jesus, the son of Damneus, high priest.
https://clas-pages.uncc.edu/james-tabor ... hus-james/

Giuseppe
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Re: Was James the original Judas?

Post by Giuseppe »

Only the construct "called Christ".
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
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Joseph D. L.
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Re: Was James the original Judas?

Post by Joseph D. L. »

Giuseppe, I don't think you realize just how correct you are in thinking that James and Judas are the same. But your appropriation seems misdirected. The original Gospel did not include the death of James, but of his appointing as the leader of fellow Christians (still Jews) by Christ, effectively becoming the Risen Lord. (Even though the text describes it as the Risen Lord granting him authority, it should be understood that this is an allegory).

I'll give you a key: James = Judas = Thomas = Risen Lord/Paraclete

Once you realize the mechanisms by which the tradition functions, everything falls into place.
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