Beginning with the baptism of John....

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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Ben C. Smith
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Beginning with the baptism of John....

Post by Ben C. Smith »

The election of Matthias (over Joseph/Justus bar Sabbas) in Acts 1 stipulated that the candidates had to have accompanied the apostles for the entire time of Jesus' ministry, "beginning with the baptism of John" and up until the present day:

Acts 1.21-22: 21 "Therefore it is necessary that of the men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us — 22 beginning with the baptism of John until the day that He was taken up from us — one of these must become a witness with us of His resurrection."

This implies that the apostles themselves had accompanied Jesus since the days of the baptism of John. But this is not how the story goes in the gospel of Mark, for one:

Mark 1.14-20: 14 Now after John had been taken into custody, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of God, 15 and saying, "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel." 16 As He was going along by the Sea of Galilee, He saw Simon and Andrew, the brother of Simon, casting a net in the sea; for they were fishermen. 17 And Jesus said to them, "Follow Me, and I will make you become fishers of men." 18 Immediately they left their nets and followed Him. 19 Going on a little farther, He saw James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother, who were also in the boat mending the nets. 20 Immediately He called them; and they left their father Zebedee in the boat with the hired servants, and went away to follow Him.

Matthew 4.12-22 agrees with this Marcan chronology: the first disciples are called only after John has been cast into prison.

Luke is noncommittal as to the timing of John's imprisonment with respect to the calling of the first disciples; he merely reports in advance, while describing John and his preaching, that Herod eventually locked him up:

Luke 3.18-20: 18 So with many other exhortations he preached the gospel to the people. 19 But when Herod the tetrarch was reprimanded by him because of Herodias, his brother’s wife, and because of all the wicked things which Herod had done, 20 Herod also added this to them all: he locked John up in prison.

Later on, while Matthew 11.1-19 affirms that John is in prison when he sends his inquiry to Jesus (verse 2), Luke 7.18-35 neither confirms nor denies that John is in prison at this time. By Luke 9.7, however, John is dead.

It is the gospel of John that explicitly states that the first disciples were called while John was still free:

John 1.35-51: 35 Again the next day John was standing with two of his disciples, 36 and he looked upon Jesus as He walked, and said, "Behold, the Lamb of God!" 37 And the two disciples heard him speak, and they followed Jesus. 38 And Jesus turned, and beheld them following, and said to them, "What do you seek?" And they said to Him, "Rabbi (which translated means Teacher), where are You staying?" 39 He said to them, "Come, and you will see." They came therefore and saw where He was staying; and they stayed with Him that day, for it was about the tenth hour. 40 One of the two who heard John speak, and followed Him, was Andrew, Simon Peter's brother. 41 He found first his own brother Simon, and said to him, "We have found the Messiah" (which translated means Christ). 42 He brought him to Jesus. Jesus looked at him, and said, "You are Simon the son of John; you shall be called Cephas " (which is translated Peter). 43 The next day He purposed to go forth into Galilee, and He found Philip. And Jesus said to him, "Follow Me." 44 Now Philip was from Bethsaida, of the city of Andrew and Peter. 45 Philip found Nathanael and said to him, "We have found Him of whom Moses in the Law and also the Prophets wrote, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph." 46 And Nathanael said to him, "Can any good thing come out of Nazareth?" Philip said to him, "Come and see." 47 Jesus saw Nathanael coming to Him, and said of him, "Behold, an Israelite indeed, in whom is no guile!" 48 Nathanael said to Him, "How do You know me?" Jesus answered and said to him, "Before Philip called you, when you were under the fig tree, I saw you." 49 Nathanael answered Him, "Rabbi, You are the Son of God; You are the King of Israel." 50 Jesus answered and said to him, "Because I said to you that I saw you under the fig tree, do you believe? You shall see greater things than these." 51 And He said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, you shall see the heavens opened, and the angels of God ascending and descending on the Son of Man."

John 3.22-24: 22 After these things Jesus and His disciples came into the land of Judea, and there He was spending time with them and baptizing. 23 John also was baptizing in Aenon near Salim, because there was much water there; and people were coming and were being baptized — 24 for John had not yet been thrown into prison.

Acts 1.22-23, therefore, is actually confirming the Johannine chronology. This to me looks like a directional issue: it seems more likely that Acts 1.22-23 is reacting to an existing chronology than that the gospel of John constructed its entire chronological sequence out of Acts 1.22-23. Luke appears to be harmonizing, omitting explicit references as found in Matthew and Mark to the effect that John was imprisoned before the first disciples were called, but without actually saying so as clearly as John does (refer to John 3.22-24 above). Luke's approach comes across as somewhat Eusebian, if I may be so bold: cover all bases, but cover up as many discrepancies as the texts will let you get away with.

Ben.
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Re: Beginning with the baptism of John....

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You know... the more I look into this subject the more it seems to me that the sequence might have been Mark, John, Luke, Matthew, Acts.

What think you?
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Re: Beginning with the baptism of John....

Post by Ben C. Smith »

Jax wrote: Tue Jan 16, 2018 6:22 pm You know... the more I look into this subject the more it seems to me that the sequence might have been Mark, John, Luke, Matthew, Acts.

What think you?
Oh, I hold squarely with Boismard:

Image

Just kidding.

I have argued elsewhere that something like Mark preceded something like Matthew: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3640.

I also think that at least some stage of the gospel of John was written for readers of Mark. Stuart seems to think that some stage of John was written against Matthew, and I am looking into that.

The overall relationship of Matthew and Luke is unclear to me. Sometimes I can see Luke using Matthew, sometimes Matthew using Luke, and sometimes both using something else (Qish, the Didache, Jewish-Christian gospels, other things).

I think that the final redaction of John is probably very late, but that early redactions of John may either be rather early or at least preserve early versions of stories.

I always bear in mind a certain quotation from David Parker: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1832&p=41579#p41579, and I think that all three models I have outlined here: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3616&p=78518#p78518, may be working together in all our gospel texts. (That is, each text may have more than one edition, may use sources, and may have scribal interpolations or harmonizations going on; all of these contingencies are attested for ancient texts, and for Christian texts in particular.)

When I am tracing the development of each individual story or whatnot, I try to deliberately "forget" my overall impression of the sequence of gospels and let the evidence at hand guide me; often that evidence guides me in the same direction as my overall impression, but sometimes it does not, and I am okay with that, since I do think that this early Christian literature is the kind of literature that was prone to being written, rewritten, edited, reedited, added to, subtracted from, and snowballed. I very much doubt that our earliest extant manuscripts reflect the earliest stages of the textual tradition.

I am still pretty happy with my work on the parable of the talents/pounds: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2159. It is not so much that I think I am right as that I am pleased with the thoroughgoing nature of my approach. I included all the texts I could find on the topic in my initial data pool, which I think is vital. So often we tend to start with the canonical gospels, get them straight in our minds, and only then look to the other gospels (Thomas, Peter, lost texts known only in patristic quotations, and so on) to see where they may fit. But I do not think our evidence permits this approach. I may post something about this at some point, but I think that the nature of our evidence for the gospel materials up until late century II offers us a moving target, one result of which is that any and all of the gospel texts from the period in question may have a shot of preserving the earliest form of any given tidbit.
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Re: Beginning with the baptism of John....

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Excellent thread. It is worth noting that the Arabic Diatessaron has Jesus gather disciples BEFORE the arrest of John which only takes place in section 6.23 " And Herod the governor, because he used to be rebuked by John because of Herodias the wife of Philip his brother, and for all the sins which he was commit- ting, added to all that also this, that he shut up John in prison." The first mention of 'disciples' occurs in section 5 (John's two disciples who see Jesus coming towards them as in John). The first mention of Jesus's disciples occurs later in section 5 again from John "and Jesus also and his disciples were invited to the feast." The pre-arrest disciple-making activity of Jesus extends into synoptic material. Here is what follows in section 5 down to the arrest of John:
5.44 And while he was walking on the shore of the sea of Galilee, he saw two brethren, Simon who was called Cephas, and Andrew his brother, casting their nets into the sea; for they were fishers. And Jesus said unto them, Follow me, and I will make you fishers of men. And they immediately left their nets there and followed him. And when he went on from thence, he saw other two brothers, James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother, in the ship with Zebedee their father, mending their nets; and Jesus called them. And they immediately forsook the ship and their father Zebedee, and followed him.

And when the multitude gathered unto him to hear the word of God, while he was standing on the shore of the sea of Gennesaret, he saw two boats standing beside the sea, while the two fishers which were gone out of them were washing their nets. And one of them belonged to Simon Cephas. And Jesus went up and sat down in it, and commanded that they should move away a little from the land into 52 the water. And he sat down and taught the multitudes from the boat. And when he had left off his speaking, he said unto Simon, Put out into the deep, and cast your net for a draught. And Simon answered and said unto him, My Master, we toiled all night and caught nothing; now at thy word I will cast the net. And when they did this, there were enclosed a great many fishes; and their net was on the point of breaking. And they beckoned to their comrades that were in the other boat, to come and help them. And when they came, they filled both boats, so that they were on the point of sinking.

SECTION VI.

61 Arabic, But when Simon Cephas saw this he fell before the feet of Jesus, and said unto him, My Lord, I beseech of thee to depart from me, for I am 2 a sinful man. And amazement took possession of him, and of all who were with him, 3 because of the draught of the fishes which they had taken. And thus also were James and John the sons of Zebedee overtaken, who were Simon's partners. And Jesus said 4 unto Simon, Fear not; henceforth thou shalt be a fisher of men unto life. And they brought the boats to the land; and they left everything, and followed him.

5 And after that came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and he went 6 about there with them, and baptized. And John also was baptizing in AEnon, which is beside Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were bap- 8 tized. And John was not yet come into prison. And there was an inquiry between 9 one of John's disciples and one of the Jews about purifying. And they came unto John, and said unto him, Our master, he that was with thee beyond Jordan, to whom thou hast borne witness, behold, he also baptizeth, and many come to him. John answered and said unto them, A man can receive nothing of himself, except it be given him from heaven. Ye are they that bear witness unto me that I said, I am not the Messiah, but I am one sent before him. And he that hath a bride is a bridegroom: and the friend of the bridegroom is he that standeth and listeneth to him, and rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice. Lo now, behold, my 13, Arabic, joy becometh complete. And he must increase and I decrease. For he that is come from above is higher than everything; and he that is of the earth, of the earth he is, and of the earth he speaketh; and he that came down from heaven is higher than all. And he beareth witness of what he hath seen and heard: and no man receiveth his witness. And he that hath received his witness hath asserted that he is truly God. And he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: God gave not the Spirit by measure. The Father loveth the Son, and hath put everything in his hands. Whosoever believeth in the Son hath eternal life; but whosoever obeyeth not the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God cometh upon him.

20 And Jesus learned that the Pharisees had heard that he had received many disciples, and that he was baptizing more than John (not that Jesus was himself bap- tizing, but his disciples); and so he left Judaea.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
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Re: Beginning with the baptism of John....

Post by andrewcriddle »

The original apostles were chosen by Jesus on the basis of Jesus' own authority.
When choosing a replacement on the basis of their own authority the apostles may have felt it necessary to use criteria more restrictive than those used by Jesus himself.

Andrew Criddle
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Ben C. Smith
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Re: Beginning with the baptism of John....

Post by Ben C. Smith »

andrewcriddle wrote: Thu Jan 18, 2018 11:34 am The original apostles were chosen by Jesus on the basis of Jesus' own authority.
When choosing a replacement on the basis of their own authority the apostles may have felt it necessary to use criteria more restrictive than those used by Jesus himself.

Andrew Criddle
This may be so, but the exact wording employed suggests that the apostles themselves had attended Jesus since John: "men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, beginning with the baptism of John until the day that He was taken up from us." Does it not?
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Re: Beginning with the baptism of John....

Post by Charles Wilson »

Ben C. Smith wrote: Tue Jan 16, 2018 7:12 pmI also think that at least some stage of the gospel of John was written for readers of Mark. Stuart seems to think that some stage of John was written against Matthew, and I am looking into that.
This may be worthy of a new Thread.

John certainly appears to be "answering" Mark, both in Jewish and Roman knowledge.
"Against" Matthew? Tell me more...

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Re: Beginning with the baptism of John....

Post by andrewcriddle »

Ben C. Smith wrote: Thu Jan 18, 2018 11:45 am
andrewcriddle wrote: Thu Jan 18, 2018 11:34 am The original apostles were chosen by Jesus on the basis of Jesus' own authority.
When choosing a replacement on the basis of their own authority the apostles may have felt it necessary to use criteria more restrictive than those used by Jesus himself.

Andrew Criddle
This may be so, but the exact wording employed suggests that the apostles themselves had attended Jesus since John: "men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, beginning with the baptism of John until the day that He was taken up from us." Does it not?
I can't help feeling that if say 8 out of the surviving 11 had been associated with Jesus from the time of John's ministry then this language would have been appropriate. IMHO it does not imply that all of the 11 were chosen that early.

Andrew Criddle

EDITED TO ADD

I may have misunderstood your claim. If your argument is that in the earliest form of the tradition none of the apostles go back to the time of John's ministry then my comment is beside the point.
Last edited by andrewcriddle on Thu Jan 18, 2018 11:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Beginning with the baptism of John....

Post by Ben C. Smith »

andrewcriddle wrote: Thu Jan 18, 2018 11:52 am
Ben C. Smith wrote: Thu Jan 18, 2018 11:45 am
andrewcriddle wrote: Thu Jan 18, 2018 11:34 am The original apostles were chosen by Jesus on the basis of Jesus' own authority.
When choosing a replacement on the basis of their own authority the apostles may have felt it necessary to use criteria more restrictive than those used by Jesus himself.

Andrew Criddle
This may be so, but the exact wording employed suggests that the apostles themselves had attended Jesus since John: "men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, beginning with the baptism of John until the day that He was taken up from us." Does it not?
I can't help feeling that if say 8 out of the surviving 11 had been associated with Jesus from the time of Jesus' baptism by John then this language would have been appropriate. IMHO it does not imply that all of the 11 had associations with John.

Andrew Criddle
Surely it would include at least Peter, though, right? He is the one speaking.
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Re: Beginning with the baptism of John....

Post by andrewcriddle »

Ben C. Smith wrote: Thu Jan 18, 2018 11:58 am
andrewcriddle wrote: Thu Jan 18, 2018 11:52 am

I can't help feeling that if say 8 out of the surviving 11 had been associated with Jesus from the time of Jesus' baptism by John then this language would have been appropriate. IMHO it does not imply that all of the 11 had associations with John.

Andrew Criddle
Surely it would include at least Peter, though, right? He is the one speaking.
See my addition to my earlier post. We may have been at cross purposes, sorry.

Andrew Criddle
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