Josephus on James the Just?

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Trees of Life
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Re: Josephus on James the Just?

Post by Trees of Life »

Ken Olson wrote: Tue May 08, 2018 9:21 am Tree of Life wrote:
The so called/called text applies to brother and when correctly rendered Ant. Bk 20 Ch 9:1 is read: 'James, the so called brother of Jesus Christ/Messiah.'
Let’s look at the Greek of Ant. 20.200:

τὸν ἀδελφὸν Ἰησοῦ τοῦ λεγομένου Χριστοῦ, Ἰάκωβος ὄνομα αὐτῷ

the brother (of) Jesus the (one) called (the?) Christ, James (the) name (of) him

Can you give valid linguistic (as opposed to ideological or dogmatic) reasons for taking τοῦ λεγομένου as modifying τὸν ἀδελφὸν as opposed to Χριστοῦ in this text? Why would the author place τοῦ λεγομένου between «Jesus» and «Christ» if he intended it to modify «brother»?
Linguistic Reasons:

1. Continuity:

There is no interpolator to report due to there being no interpolation.

Josephus has earlier in Antiquities Book 18 Chapter 3:3 stated as fact that Jesus was the Messiah/Christ.

It then follows that in Antiquities Book 20 Chap. 9:1 the application of 'so called', or 'called' is not in reference to the established identity of Jesus who was well known as the Christ/Messiah, nor for the established identity of James who was well known as the administrator for the Christian sect in Jerusalem.

The so called/called text applies to brother and when correctly rendered Ant. Bk 20 Ch 9:1 is read: 'James, the so called brother of Jesus Christ/Messiah.'

2. Esoteric Purposes:

The text, as rendered by me, 'James, the "so-called" brother of Jesus Christ/Messiah' is read by virtue of those who knew James as such.

Notes:

1. I scrutinized your Greek in as far as my limited understanding.

2. In view of Josephus' Antiquities being an outstanding tome; how does an interpolator succeed in secretly adulterating his work? Would for example, Origen have appreciated the scandal?

3. Josephus' work is accorded authenticity due to his knowledge of the esoteric context applied to James the Just.
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Ben C. Smith
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Re: Josephus on James the Just?

Post by Ben C. Smith »

Trees of Life wrote: Sun May 06, 2018 10:25 amThe so called/called text applies to brother and when correctly rendered Ant. Bk 20 Ch 9:1 is read: 'James, the so called brother of Jesus Christ/Messiah.'
Trees of Life wrote: Wed May 09, 2018 10:47 amI scrutinized your Greek in as far as my limited understanding.
Your translation is impossible. The Greek is: τὸν ἀδελφὸν Ἰησοῦ τοῦ λεγομένου Χριστοῦ. The phrase "the brother" is in the accusative case; "Jesus," "Christ," and "so called" are all in the genitive case. The "so called" cannot modify "brother." Its position in the clause and its grammatical case force it to modify "Christ."
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Trees of Life
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Re: Josephus on James the Just?

Post by Trees of Life »

Ben C. Smith wrote: Wed May 09, 2018 10:59 am Your translation is impossible. The Greek is: τὸν ἀδελφὸν Ἰησοῦ τοῦ λεγομένου Χριστοῦ. The phrase "the brother" is in the accusative case; "Jesus," "Christ," and "so called" are all in the genitive case. The "so called" cannot modify "brother." Its position in the clause and its grammatical case force it to modify "Christ."
"'So called"' is expressed in English, and along with the quoted Josephus text, an analysis of the English translation was done.

The prerequisite is that 'so called' applies to 'brother of Jesus' when reading Antiquities Book 20 Chap. 9:1 — due to continuity and the esoteric purposes of the author, Josephus.

The Greek can be applied accordingly.
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Ben C. Smith
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Re: Josephus on James the Just?

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Trees of Life wrote: Sun May 13, 2018 6:45 am
Ben C. Smith wrote: Wed May 09, 2018 10:59 am Your translation is impossible. The Greek is: τὸν ἀδελφὸν Ἰησοῦ τοῦ λεγομένου Χριστοῦ. The phrase "the brother" is in the accusative case; "Jesus," "Christ," and "so called" are all in the genitive case. The "so called" cannot modify "brother." Its position in the clause and its grammatical case force it to modify "Christ."
"'So called"' is expressed in English, and along with the quoted Josephus text, an analysis of the English translation was done.
"So-called" is the/a frequently used English translation of λεγομένου. I am not even sure what you mean by "an analysis of the English translation" being done. The text is in Greek.
The Greek can be applied accordingly.
No, it can not. It is grammatically crystal clear that "so-called" goes with "Christ" (and not with "brother"). You would have to argue for a conjectural emendation of the text, not a mere retranslation of it.
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Re: Josephus on James the Just?

Post by Secret Alias »

These arguments between learned and unlearned individuals are always funny because they remind us that things in the universe are fixed. It's like arguing with your accountant about how much money you made last year.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
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Re: Josephus on James the Just?

Post by Ulan »

Trees of Life wrote: Sun May 13, 2018 6:45 am
Ben C. Smith wrote: Wed May 09, 2018 10:59 am Your translation is impossible. The Greek is: τὸν ἀδελφὸν Ἰησοῦ τοῦ λεγομένου Χριστοῦ. The phrase "the brother" is in the accusative case; "Jesus," "Christ," and "so called" are all in the genitive case. The "so called" cannot modify "brother." Its position in the clause and its grammatical case force it to modify "Christ."
"'So called"' is expressed in English, and along with the quoted Josephus text, an analysis of the English translation was done.

The prerequisite is that 'so called' applies to 'brother of Jesus' when reading Antiquities Book 20 Chap. 9:1 — due to continuity and the esoteric purposes of the author, Josephus.

The Greek can be applied accordingly.
You are simply wrong. This is not a matter of opinion. The idea that you would be able to argue your case from an English translation can only come from someone who has no idea of how grammar works in most other languages that didn't lose most of it during their evolution, like English did.

There is simply no room for discussion on this point. Your interpretation is impossible.
Trees of Life
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Re: Josephus on James the Just?

Post by Trees of Life »

Ken Olson wrote: Tue May 08, 2018 9:21 am Tree of Life wrote:
The so called/called text applies to brother and when correctly rendered Ant. Bk 20 Ch 9:1 is read: 'James, the so called brother of Jesus Christ/Messiah.'
Let’s look at the Greek of Ant. 20.200:

τὸν ἀδελφὸν Ἰησοῦ τοῦ λεγομένου Χριστοῦ, Ἰάκωβος ὄνομα αὐτῷ

the brother (of) Jesus the (one) called (the?) Christ, James (the) name (of) him

Can you give valid linguistic (as opposed to ideological or dogmatic) reasons for taking τοῦ λεγομένου as modifying τὸν ἀδελφὸν as opposed to Χριστοῦ in this text? Why would the author place τοῦ λεγομένου between «Jesus» and «Christ» if he intended it to modify «brother»?
As to your last sentence one element to consider is instead of having author (Josephus), is to insert translator, e.g. Origen.

If it were possible to pervert the text without rebuttal from the community, then Origen would be intentionally doing so in order to ingratiate himself to Jewish associates, those of whom viewed Jesus to be the 'so called' Christ/Messiah.
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Trees of Life
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Re: Josephus on James the Just?

Post by Trees of Life »

Quote of Trees of Life:

' "'So called"' is expressed in English, and along with the quoted Josephus text, an analysis of the English translation was done.
The prerequisite is that 'so called' applies to 'brother of Jesus' when reading Antiquities Book 20 Chap. 9:1 — due to continuity and the esoteric purposes of the author, Josephus.'

Note:
The prerequisite directly above applies also to the English when addressing my post — Antiquities books that are quoted in my posts are English translations. Greek translations or interpretations of the Greek assigned to me aren't welcome, when my posts are written in English for those conversant in English. Entering into a English language discussion with any other language only serves to have that discussion adumbratively laden.

Quote of Trees of Life:

'The Greek can be applied accordingly.'

Note:
'The Greek can be applied accordingly' — is meant for those conversant in Greek and able to render corrupt Greek texts into text correlating to the facts of which continuity and historicity dictate.
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Ben C. Smith
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Re: Josephus on James the Just?

Post by Ben C. Smith »

Trees of Life wrote: Tue May 15, 2018 7:18 pmAntiquities books that are quoted in my posts are English translations. Greek translations or interpretations of the Greek assigned to me aren't welcome, when my posts are written in English for those conversant in English.
:lol: Wow. :tombstone:
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Re: Josephus on James the Just?

Post by Secret Alias »

A new low at the forum. The Trump effect.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
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