The 2nd part of the synoptic apocalypse: the last stage of the war preceding the coming of the messiah?

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
archibald
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Re: The 2nd part of the synoptic apocalypse: the last stage of the war preceding the coming of the messiah?

Post by archibald »

FransJVermeiren wrote: Fri Jan 19, 2018 12:31 pm
archibald wrote: Wed Jan 17, 2018 1:47 pm
FransJVermeiren wrote: Wed Jan 17, 2018 12:02 pm Paul never mentions a second coming – neither literally nor conceptually. Paul only speaks of the future coming of the Christ.
But it's still essentially a second coming though, because there was a previous one, right?
With the exception of some dubious fragments, the gospels and Paul’s letters seem to have nothing to do with each other. The connecting theme of Paul’s letters is the future coming of the Christ on the impending day of the Lord. The traditional chronological connection between the gospels and Paul, on which the ‘second coming’ theory is founded, is external: because the gospels events took place around 30 CE and Paul wrote in the 50’s, Paul’s future coming of the Christ must be a second coming. But when we analyze the Pauline epistles in themselves, a totally different picture appears. Paul’s reasoning in numerous fragments is totally oriented to the future without any reference to these supposedly past events of Jesus’ spectacular activity.

The most powerful fragment in this respect, without even using these the key phrases of ‘coming of the Christ’ or ‘day of the Lord’, is Romans 8:18-25. This pericope is totally devoted to hope and expectation. For a return? Not at all: for the joyful entry of the messiah on the impending pivotal day of the Lord, when the Roman yoke will be thrown off. Verse 18: I consider that the sufferings of the present time [caused by Roman oppression] are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed to us [when we will liberate ourselves from the Romans and the Roman emperor will be replaced by the Jewish messiah]’. The anti-Roman tenor of Paul’s letters, totally in line with their eschatological messianism, is another of their main themes.
Sure. But, essentially still a second time around, because Jesus had already been here, and had died here.
FransJVermeiren
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Re: The 2nd part of the synoptic apocalypse: the last stage of the war preceding the coming of the messiah?

Post by FransJVermeiren »

archibald wrote: Fri Jan 19, 2018 7:14 pm Sure. But, essentially still a second time around, because Jesus had already been here, and had died here.
An unsolvable contradiction remains. Paul’s letters and the gospel story are so incompatible that only one of both can be true. In my opinion it is Paul’s writings, not as we know them from the NT, but their original layer, which consists of a vision of a future anonymous Christ and the future messianic age. The small ‘Jesus’ parts of Paul’s writings are added in their entirety to synchronize these letters which the forged chronology of the gospels.

This morning I was attending a funeral service, and one of the lectures was 2 Cor 4:16-18.
(16) So we do not lose heart. Though our outer person is being destroyed, our internal person is being renewed every day. (17) For this slight momentary affliction is preparing for us an eternal weight of glory beyond all comparison, (18) because we look not to the things that are visible but to the things that are invisible; for the visible things are transitory, but the invisible things are eternal.

In this fragment I discovered a parallel with Romans 8:18-25. I comment as follows.

--------------------------------Text------------------------------ -------------------------------------------------Commentary-----------------------------------------
So we do not lose heart. The present times are bad, we do not lose heart as we are hoping for a bright future.
Though our outer person is being destroyed, Paul and his fellow messianists suffer from the Roman authorities; we can think of torture and/or imprisonment.
our internal person is being renewed every day. From their messianic belief they gain the spiritual strength to endure hardship by the Romans.
For this slight momentary affliction The situation of Roman oppression comprises only a short period of history.
is preparing for us an eternal weight of glory beyond all comparison, This period of oppression precedes the incomparably glorious messianic time.
because we look not to the things that are visible but to the things that are invisible; We do not focus on the present but look forward to the future.
for the visible things are transitory The world dominion of the Romans is transitory.
but the invisible are eternal. In the near future the short period of oppressive Roman world rule will be replaced by the everlasting, glorious Jewish world dominion.

Does this line of reasoning – we keep courage despite oppression because a bright messianic future is approaching – make any sense when the messianic age started roughly two decades before with Jesus’ resurrection?
www.waroriginsofchristianity.com

The practical modes of concealment are limited only by the imaginative capacity of subordinates. James C. Scott, Domination and the Arts of Resistance.
archibald
Posts: 323
Joined: Fri Dec 29, 2017 12:07 pm
Location: Northern Ireland

Re: The 2nd part of the synoptic apocalypse: the last stage of the war preceding the coming of the messiah?

Post by archibald »

Yes.
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