1 Thessalonians first?

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arnoldo
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Re: 1 Thessalonians first?

Post by arnoldo »

PhilosopherJay wrote:Hi Arnoldo,

From Plautus, Menaechmi, Act V, Sc. 4.
Messenio, a slave, soliloquizes: Well, this is the proof of a good servant: he must take care of his master's business, look after it, arrange it, think about it; when his master is away, take care of it diligently just as much as if his master were present, or be even more careful. He must take more care of his back than his appetite, his legs than his stomach---if he's got a good heart. Just let him think what those good-for-nothings get from their masters---lazy, worthless fellows that they are. Stripes, fetters, the mill, weariness, hunger, bitter cold---fine pay for idleness. That's what I'm mightily afraid of. Surely, then, it's much better to be good than to be bad. I don't mind tongue lashings, but I do hate real floggings. I'd rather eat meal somebody else grinds, than eat what I grind myself. So I just obey what my master bids me; and I execute orders carefully and diligently. My obedience, I think, is such as is most for the profit of my back. And it surely does pay! Let others do just as they think it worth while. I'll be just where I ought to be. If I stick to that, I'll avoid blunders; and I needn't be much afraid if I'm ready for my master, come what may. The time's pretty close when for this service of mine, my master will give his reward.
"Deacon" (Slave) is given a positive connotation in Christian literature. This is possibly to attract slaves into the religion. Slaves were badly treated and abused. If Christians treated them this way, they would not want to be Christians. Honoring the service of slaves was a great way to attract slaves to do all the dirty work that needed to be done in a Christian Church.

Warmly,

Jay Raskin
arnoldo wrote:
Origen of Alexandria's commentary on Romans 16:1-2 states the following concering Phoebe.
This text teaches with the authority of the Apostle that even women are instituted deacons in the Church. This is the function which was exercised in the church of Cenchreae by Phoebe, who was the object of high praise and recommendation by Paul. He enumerated her outstanding works; she assisted everyone, he said -- i.e., she helped them in their needs -- she also helped me in my needs and my apostolic work with a perfect devotion. I readily compare her action with the hospitality of Lot, who never failed to welcome guests who presented themselves, and thereby deserved one day to grant his hospitality to angels. In the same manner, likewise, Abraham, who always came forward to greet his guests, deserved to have the Lord with his angels visit him and stay under his tent. Also this pious Phoebe, while giving assistance and rendering service to all, deserved to assist and to serve the Apostle himself. And thus this text teaches at the same time two things: that there are, as we have already said, women deacons in the Church, and that women, who have given assistance to so many people and who by their good works deserve to be praised by the Apostle, ought to be accepted in the diaconate. He also exhorted that those who are active in good works in the Church receive likewise in return from their brethren consideration and be treated with honor, in whatever manner is necessary, even in material services.
http://www.theotrek.org/resources/Plamp ... htm#Origen
Also, the Apostle Paul advised the runaway slave, Onesimus, to return to his master Philemon. Something similar happens in a letter of Pliny the Younger to Sabinianus.
CIII — To SABINIANUS

YOUR freedman, whom you lately mentioned to me with displeasure, has been with me, and threw himself at my feet with as much submission as he could have fallen at yours. He earnestly requested me with many tears, and even with all the eloquence of silent sorrow, to intercede for him; in short, he convinced me by his whole behaviour that he sincerely repents of his fault. I am persuaded he is thoroughly reformed, because he seems deeply sensible of his guilt. I know you are angry with him, and I know, too, it is not without reason; but clemency can never exert itself more laudably than when there is the most cause for resentment. You once had an affection for this man, and, I hope, will have again; meanwhile, let me only prevail with you to pardon him. If he should incur your displeasure hereafter, you will have so much the stronger plea in excuse for your anger as you show yourself more merciful to him now. Concede something to his youth, to his tears, and to your own natural mildness of temper: do not make him uneasy any longer, and I will add too, do not make yourself so; for a man of your kindness of heart cannot be angry without feeling great uneasiness. I am afraid, were I to join my entreaties with his, I should seem rather to compel than request you to forgive him. Yet I will not scruple even to write mine with his; and in so much the stronger terms as I have very sharply and severely reproved him, positively threatening never to interpose again in his behalf. But though it was proper to say this to him, in order to make him more fearful of offending, I do not say so to you. I may perhaps, again have occasion to entreat you upon this account, and again obtain your forgiveness; supposing, I mean, his fault should be such as may become me to intercede for, and you to pardon. Farewell.

http://www.gutenberg.org/files/2811/281 ... k2H_4_0043
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arnoldo
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Re: 1 Thessalonians first?

Post by arnoldo »

Andrew wrote:
PhilosopherJay said:
...
Today, the average person knows there is no atmosphere on Mars or the moon.
...
I guess I'm above (or below?) average then, because I know there is no atmosphere on the moon and an atmosphere on Mars. ;)
I'm below average because I thought travel was rather extensive in the ancient roman world. Besides Paul, Aquila also allegedly made many trips along the same routes Paul took. First, he travelled from Pontus to Rome, left Rome for Corinth, Corinth to Ephesus and sometime later went back to Rome! According to James S. Jeffers (Conflict at Rome: Social Order and Hierarchy in Early Christianity) these voyages would've cost at least 1000 sesterces, " an amount well beyond the budget of a poor craftsman. On the other hand, these trips do not imply that has rich. Rather, they mean that he was a successful, average craftsman." :popcorn:
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Re: 1 Thessalonians first?

Post by Bernard Muller »

From DCH,
Would you really place Hebrews so early? It is actually rather sophisticated. To me, it seems to have been created to tie up the loose ends caused by the rough hewn Christology of (OK, added to) the other 13 letters. You do know that in the manuscript tradition Hebrews is sometimes placed here, sometimes there? It is as if it was some latecomer trying to find a place to fit in with the rest of the crowd.

As for the others, are you basing your dating decisions on their relation to one another, to Acts, to historical allusions, or one or more of the above? Where is Ephesians in this mix?
Yes Hebrews is sophisticated, but is very much as written by Apollos of Alexandria (as known through 1 Corinthians and Acts).
I know some scholars & others place Hebrews around 90 AD (some way beyond that). They often base that on chapter 13 & its mention of presbyters past and present. Also, I guess, some Christian scholars would not stomach Hebrews (as not written by Paul or any Jesus' disciples) as being, through out-of-context quotes from the OT, the basis of Christian doctrines (which were adopted by Paul and showing in short pieces in his epistles).
I think chapter 13 was not a part of the epistle initially, but rather a short note (likely by the same Apollos) which got interpolated and then added to the epistle.
The rest is explained in the webpage I indicated earlier: http://historical-jesus.info/hjes3x.html
Here I justified when the epistle was written, to whom and by whom. Certainly, the epistle was not written to Jews as commonly believed.

Cordially, Bernard
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Jax
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Re: 1 Thessalonians first?

Post by Jax »

Peter Kirby wrote: Wed Jan 22, 2014 12:27 am Some also attempt a relative chronology on internal evidence, usually ending up with Gal > 1 Cor > 2 Cor > Rom due to references to the collection for Jerusalem. Better than this post might be this one by Mark Goodacre.

Then they try to place the other epistles considered to be genuine either before or after (or in the middle) of these, based on ideas. It is a common assumption that the ideas of 1 Thessalonians represent an earlier theological development in the mind of Paul than the four "Hauptbriefe," which are themselves usually placed before Philippians (except for Romans), resulting in a sequence of 1 Thess > Gal > 1 Cor > 2 Cor > Phil > Rom. The letter Philemon is usually classed as authentic but is also classed with Colossians, which itself has critical opinion split (so, some see both being not genuine, some see both being genuine but late, and some see Philemon as genuine but Colossians not so). Despite disagreement over Philemon and Colossians, not to mention occasional disputes regarding the authenticity of one or the other of the other six (usually Philippians, 1 Thessalonians, and/or 2 Corinthians) or against the whole corpus, the idiom of "seven genuine letters of Paul" has stuck itself deep in the theological consciousness, with Philemon receiving the privilege of being the seventh.

There is actually a lot of disagreement regarding the exact sequence that might be assigned to Paul's letters, but putting either Galatians or 1 Thessalonians first (when viewed as a combination of both opinions) is very popular.

Theological opinion from there tends to regard 2 Thessalonians and Ephesians usually as inauthentic, with significant dissent, and the three "Pastorals" of 1 Tim / 2 Tim / Titus as inauthentic, with less significant dissent (the same ~30% by-weight-volume of primarily Anglo-American evangelical Protestant scholarship that also favors 1 and 2 Peter as by Peter, Jude by Jude, James by James, etc.).

A rare exception (that is surprisingly reasonable) to the whole thing is Hermann Detering, who regards the Pauline letters as pseudepigrapha.
Unfortunately your link no longer works. Is this link https://depts.drew.edu/jhc/Detering.html the paper you meant to cite? Or is there another?

Thanks

Jax
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Re: 1 Thessalonians first?

Post by Peter Kirby »

Jax wrote: Sun Oct 22, 2017 10:03 am
Peter Kirby wrote: Wed Jan 22, 2014 12:27 am A rare exception (that is surprisingly reasonable) to the whole thing is Hermann Detering, who regards the Pauline letters as pseudepigrapha.
Unfortunately your link no longer works. Is this link https://depts.drew.edu/jhc/Detering.html the paper you meant to cite? Or is there another?
The URL has moved to http://radikalkritik.de/sample-page/art ... in-english
"... almost every critical biblical position was earlier advanced by skeptics." - Raymond Brown
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Re: 1 Thessalonians first?

Post by Jax »

Peter Kirby wrote: Sun Oct 22, 2017 1:35 pm
Jax wrote: Sun Oct 22, 2017 10:03 am
Peter Kirby wrote: Wed Jan 22, 2014 12:27 am A rare exception (that is surprisingly reasonable) to the whole thing is Hermann Detering, who regards the Pauline letters as pseudepigrapha.
Unfortunately your link no longer works. Is this link https://depts.drew.edu/jhc/Detering.html the paper you meant to cite? Or is there another?
The URL has moved to http://radikalkritik.de/sample-page/art ... in-english
Ah, Thank you very much. :)
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Re: 1 Thessalonians first?

Post by DCHindley »

I think a comparison between Ephesians & Colossians will add something to our understanding of the redaction history of these two "Pauline" letters, and will maybe bear on the overall redaction history of the corpus as it has come down to us. Comparing the related content:

Eph 3:2 assuming that you have heard of the stewardship of God's grace that was given to me for you,
Col 1:25 of which I became a minister according to the stewardship which was given to me for you, to make the word of God fully known,
3:3 [how the mystery was made known to me by revelation, as I have written briefly].
3:4 [When you read this you can perceive my insight into the mystery of Christ], 1:26a the mystery
3:5a which was not made known to the sons of men in other generations 1:26b hidden for ages and generations
3:5b as it has now been revealed to his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; 1:26c but now made manifest to his saints.
3:6 that is, how the Gentiles are fellow heirs, members of the same body, and partakers of the promise [in Christ Jesus] through the good news. -- 1:27 To them God chose to make known how great among the Gentiles are the riches of the glory of this mystery, [which is Christ in you], the hope of glory.
4:14 so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the cunning of men, by their craftiness in deceitful wiles. 2:18 Let no one disqualify you, insisting on self-abasement and worship of angels, taking his stand on visions, puffed up without reason by his sensuous mind,
4:15a Rather, speaking the truth in love,
4;15b we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, [into Christ], 2:19a and not holding fast to the Head,
4:16 from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by every joint with which it is supplied, when each part is working properly, makes bodily growth and upbuilds itself in love. 2:19b from whom the whole body, nourished and knit together through its joints and ligaments, grows with a growth that is from God.
4:22 Put off your old nature which belongs to your former manner of life and is corrupt through deceitful lusts, 3:9 Do not lie to one another, seeing that you have put off the old nature with its practices
23 and be renewed in the spirit of your minds,
24 and put on the new nature, created after the likeness of God in true righteousness and holiness. 10 and have put on the new nature, which is being renewed in knowledge after the image of its creator.
5:22 Wives, be subject to your husbands, [as to the Lord]. 3:18 Wives, be subject to your husbands, as is fitting in (the) LORD.
23 [For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior.
24 As the church is subject to Christ, so let wives also be subject in everything to their husbands].
25a Husbands, love your wives, 19a Husbands, love your wives,
25b [as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, 26 that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, 27 that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish. 28a Even so husbands should love their wives]
28b as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 19b and do not be harsh with them.
29 For no man ever hates his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, [as Christ does the church, 30 because we are members of his body]. 31 "For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.” (Gen 2:24)
32 [This mystery is a profound one, and I am saying that it refers to Christ and the church; 33 however, let each one of you love his wife as himself, and let the wife see that she respects her husband].
6:1 Children, obey your parents in (the) LORD, for this is right. 3:20 Children, obey your parents in everything, for this pleases (the) LORD.
2 "Honor your father and mother" (this is the first commandment with a promise),
3a "that it may be well with you and that you may live long on the earth." (Ex 20:12b)
3b Fathers, do not provoke your children to anger, 21 Fathers, do not provoke your children,.lest they become discouraged
4 but bring them up in the discipline and instruction of (the) LORD.
5a Slaves, be obedient to those who are your earthly masters, 22a Slaves, obey in everything those who are your earthly masters,
5b with fear and trembling, in singleness of heart, [as to Christ];
6a not in the way of eye-service, as men-pleasers, 22b not with eyeservice, as men-pleasers,
6b but as servants [of Christ], doing the will of God from the soul, 22c but in singleness of heart, fearing (the) LORD.
7 rendering service with a good will as to the master and not to men, 23 Whatever your task, work heartily, as serving the master and not men,
8 knowing that whatever good any one does, he will receive the same again from (the) LORD, 24a knowing that from (the) LORD you will receive the inheritance as your reward;
whether he is a slave or free.
24b [you are serving the Lord Christ].
25a For the wrongdoer will be paid back for the wrong he has done,
(See 9c) 25b and there is no partiality.
9a Masters, do the same to them, and forbear threatening, 4:1a Masters, treat your slaves justly and fairly,
9b knowing that he who is both their Master and yours is in heaven, 4:1b knowing that you also have a Master in heaven.
9c and that there is no partiality with him. (See 25b)
6:21 Now that you also may know how I am and what I am doing, Tychicus the beloved brother and faithful minister in (the) LORD will tell you everything. 4:7 Tychicus will tell you all about my affairs; he is a beloved brother and faithful minister and fellow servant in (the) LORD.
6:22 I have sent him to you for this very purpose, that you may know how we are, and that he may encourage your hearts. 4:8 I have sent him to you for this very purpose, that you may know how we are and that he may encourage your hearts,

The red highlighted text is stuff I have identified as overlaid Christology. Most all of it is in Ephesians, but a little is found in Colossians. It is almost as if they were edited by Christ believing redactor(s) separately, and not one redacted version transformed into another. That still means there were two versions of this letter floating about. However, the words "the mystery" were incorporated into an interpolation in Eph 3:4 but not in Col 1:26a, tells me that Colossians contains the probably original wording of these twin letters.

This is from a post dated ...

DCH
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Re: 1 Thessalonians first?

Post by DCHindley »

I think a comparison between Ephesians & Colossians will add something to our understanding of the redaction history of these two "Pauline" letters, and will maybe bear on the overall redaction history of the corpus as it has come down to us. Comparing the related content:

Eph 3:2 assuming that you have heard of the stewardship of God's grace that was given to me for you,
Col 1:25 of which I became a minister according to the stewardship which was given to me for you, to make the word of God fully known,
3:3 [how the mystery was made known to me by revelation, as I have written briefly].
3:4 [When you read this you can perceive my insight into the mystery of Christ], 1:26a the mystery
3:5a which was not made known to the sons of men in other generations 1:26b hidden for ages and generations
3:5b as it has now been revealed to his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; 1:26c but now made manifest to his saints.
3:6 that is, how the Gentiles are fellow heirs, members of the same body, and partakers of the promise [in Christ Jesus] through the good news. -- 1:27 To them God chose to make known how great among the Gentiles are the riches of the glory of this mystery, [which is Christ in you], the hope of glory.
4:14 so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the cunning of men, by their craftiness in deceitful wiles. 2:18 Let no one disqualify you, insisting on self-abasement and worship of angels, taking his stand on visions, puffed up without reason by his sensuous mind,
4:15a Rather, speaking the truth in love,
4;15b we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, [into Christ], 2:19a and not holding fast to the Head,
4:16 from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by every joint with which it is supplied, when each part is working properly, makes bodily growth and upbuilds itself in love. 2:19b from whom the whole body, nourished and knit together through its joints and ligaments, grows with a growth that is from God.
4:22 Put off your old nature which belongs to your former manner of life and is corrupt through deceitful lusts, 3:9 Do not lie to one another, seeing that you have put off the old nature with its practices
23 and be renewed in the spirit of your minds,
24 and put on the new nature, created after the likeness of God in true righteousness and holiness. 10 and have put on the new nature, which is being renewed in knowledge after the image of its creator.
5:22 Wives, be subject to your husbands, [as to the Lord]. 3:18 Wives, be subject to your husbands, as is fitting in (the) LORD.
23 [For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior.
24 As the church is subject to Christ, so let wives also be subject in everything to their husbands].
25a Husbands, love your wives, 19a Husbands, love your wives,
25b [as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, 26 that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, 27 that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish. 28a Even so husbands should love their wives]
28b as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 19b and do not be harsh with them.
29 For no man ever hates his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, [as Christ does the church, 30 because we are members of his body]. 31 "For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.” (Gen 2:24)
32 [This mystery is a profound one, and I am saying that it refers to Christ and the church; 33 however, let each one of you love his wife as himself, and let the wife see that she respects her husband].
6:1 Children, obey your parents in (the) LORD, for this is right. 3:20 Children, obey your parents in everything, for this pleases (the) LORD.
2 "Honor your father and mother" (this is the first commandment with a promise),
3a "that it may be well with you and that you may live long on the earth." (Ex 20:12b)
3b Fathers, do not provoke your children to anger, 21 Fathers, do not provoke your children,.lest they become discouraged
4 but bring them up in the discipline and instruction of (the) LORD.
5a Slaves, be obedient to those who are your earthly masters, 22a Slaves, obey in everything those who are your earthly masters,
5b with fear and trembling, in singleness of heart, [as to Christ];
6a not in the way of eye-service, as men-pleasers, 22b not with eyeservice, as men-pleasers,
6b but as servants [of Christ], doing the will of God from the soul, 22c but in singleness of heart, fearing (the) LORD.
7 rendering service with a good will as to the master and not to men, 23 Whatever your task, work heartily, as serving the master and not men,
8 knowing that whatever good any one does, he will receive the same again from (the) LORD, 24a knowing that from (the) LORD you will receive the inheritance as your reward;
whether he is a slave or free.
24b [you are serving the Lord Christ].
25a For the wrongdoer will be paid back for the wrong he has done,
(See 9c) 25b and there is no partiality.
9a Masters, do the same to them, and forbear threatening, 4:1a Masters, treat your slaves justly and fairly,
9b knowing that he who is both their Master and yours is in heaven, 4:1b knowing that you also have a Master in heaven.
9c and that there is no partiality with him. (See 25b)
6:21 Now that you also may know how I am and what I am doing, Tychicus the beloved brother and faithful minister in (the) LORD will tell you everything. 4:7 Tychicus will tell you all about my affairs; he is a beloved brother and faithful minister and fellow servant in (the) LORD.
6:22 I have sent him to you for this very purpose, that you may know how we are, and that he may encourage your hearts. 4:8 I have sent him to you for this very purpose, that you may know how we are and that he may encourage your hearts,

The red highlighted text is stuff I had previously (and independently) identified as overlaid Christology. In this case of overlapping letters, most all of these suspected interpolations are in Ephesians, a little is found in Colossians. It is almost as if the two versions of this part of the letter were edited by Christ believing redactor(s) separately, and not one redacted version transformed into another.

That still means there were two versions of this overlapping material floating about. The words "the mystery" were incorporated into an interpolation in Eph 3:4 but not in Col 1:26a, which suggests - to me - that Colossians contains the more original wording of these twin letters.

[This is from my post dated 2014:
viewtopic.php?p=5930#p5930 ]

DCH
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