How late might the gospels be?

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hakeem
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Re: How late might the gospels be?

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Ben C. Smith wrote: Wed Jan 24, 2018 12:23 pm
The main point is that the adverb does not introduce any real period of time. It does not look like Matthew was extending anything. That adverb, τότε, is not a great choice for extending time. I think that you are off the track mindreading Matthew like that; as I pointed out, τότε is one of his favorite words.
May I remind you that Christian writers in antiquity claimed the twelve disciples of Jesus were illiterate which means Matthew could not read or write.

Justin's First Apology
For from Jerusalem there went out into the world, men, twelve in number, and these illiterate, of no ability in speaking: but by the power of God they proclaimed to every race of men that they were sent by Christ to teach to all the word of God...

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Ben C. Smith
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Re: How late might the gospels be?

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hakeem wrote: Wed Jan 24, 2018 12:39 pm
Ben C. Smith wrote: Wed Jan 24, 2018 12:23 pm
The main point is that the adverb does not introduce any real period of time. It does not look like Matthew was extending anything. That adverb, τότε, is not a great choice for extending time. I think that you are off the track mindreading Matthew like that; as I pointed out, τότε is one of his favorite words.
May I remind you that Christian writers in antiquity claimed the twelve disciples of Jesus were illiterate which means Matthew could not read or write.

Justin's First Apology
For from Jerusalem there went out into the world, men, twelve in number, and these illiterate, of no ability in speaking: but by the power of God they proclaimed to every race of men that they were sent by Christ to teach to all the word of God...

The Greek must be consulted:

Justin Martyr, 1 Apology 39.3: 3 For from Jerusalem there went out into the world, men, twelve in number, and these illiterate [ἰδιῶται], of no ability in speaking....

Plato, Phaedrus 258δ: δ [Socrates:] What, then, is the method of writing well or badly? Do we want to question Lysias about this, and anyone else who ever has written or will write anything, whether a public or private document, in verse or in prose, be he poet or ordinary man [ἰδιώτης]?

Nevertheless, I have recently argued that Matthew was originally not one of the twelve.
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Bernard Muller
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Re: How late might the gospels be?

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to Ben,
The main point is that the adverb does not introduce any real period of time. It does not look like Matthew was extending anything. That adverb, τότε, is not a great choice for extending time. I think that you are off the track mindreading Matthew like that; as I pointed out, τότε is one of his favorite words.
I did not say "Matthew" used 'tote' in order to extend anything. But rather to indicate that the action introduced by 'tote' comes next after the immediately preceding described action.
That is obvious for most of the verses I gave you where the action which follows 'tote' is set in the future.
Such as, 7 verses before 24:21: 24:14 "And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached throughout the whole world, as a testimony to all nations; and then the end will come."

Maybe not a great choice to indicate "next", but a good choice for not departing too much from Mark's wording.

Cordially, Bernard
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Ben C. Smith
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Re: How late might the gospels be?

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Bernard Muller wrote: Wed Jan 24, 2018 1:49 pm to Ben,
The main point is that the adverb does not introduce any real period of time. It does not look like Matthew was extending anything. That adverb, τότε, is not a great choice for extending time. I think that you are off the track mindreading Matthew like that; as I pointed out, τότε is one of his favorite words.
I did not say "Matthew" used 'tote' in order to extend anything. But rather to indicate that the action introduced by 'tote' comes next after the immediately preceding described action.
That is obvious for most of the verses I gave you where the action which follows 'tote' is set in the future.
Such as, 7 verses before 24:21: 24:14 "And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached throughout the whole world, as a testimony to all nations; and then the end will come."

Maybe not a great choice to indicate "next", but a good choice for not departing too much from Mark's wording.

Cordially, Bernard
Then how does the meaning differ from what we find in Mark ("in those days, after that tribulation" versus the same basic description that Mark gives of the tribulation followed by "next")?
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hakeem
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Re: How late might the gospels be?

Post by hakeem »

hakeem wrote: Wed Jan 24, 2018 12:39 pm
May I remind you that Christian writers in antiquity claimed the twelve disciples of Jesus were illiterate which means Matthew could not read or write.

Justin's First Apology
For from Jerusalem there went out into the world, men, twelve in number, and these illiterate, of no ability in speaking: but by the power of God they proclaimed to every race of men that they were sent by Christ to teach to all the word of God...

Ben C. Smith wrote: Wed Jan 24, 2018 12:23 pm The Greek must be consulted:
Are you implying that the translators did not know Greek? It is rather absurd to suggest that Roberts and Donaldson did not consult with the Greek version of Justin's First Apology before their translation.
Ben C. Smith wrote: Wed Jan 24, 2018 12:23 pm Nevertheless, I have recently argued that Matthew was originally not one of the twelve.
There is nothing original about the twelve.

The Jesus stories are complete non-contemporary propaganda ---void of history. The Jesus stories called Gospels were manufactured by anonymous sources no earlier than the writings attributed to Pliny the younger c 115 CE and then falsely attributed to disciples and Apostles called Matthew, Mark, Luke and John to make the stories appear to be fulfilled prophecies.

When the Gospels with the so-called generational prophecies were written most of the events must have already occurred or believed to have happened.

The Gospels must be and always were anonymous so that no-one would detect that they were really invented after the supposed prophesied events.
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Re: How late might the gospels be?

Post by Ben C. Smith »

hakeem wrote: Wed Jan 24, 2018 3:11 pm
hakeem wrote: Wed Jan 24, 2018 12:39 pm
May I remind you that Christian writers in antiquity claimed the twelve disciples of Jesus were illiterate which means Matthew could not read or write.

Justin's First Apology
For from Jerusalem there went out into the world, men, twelve in number, and these illiterate, of no ability in speaking: but by the power of God they proclaimed to every race of men that they were sent by Christ to teach to all the word of God...

Ben C. Smith wrote: Wed Jan 24, 2018 12:23 pm The Greek must be consulted:
Are you implying that the translators did not know Greek? It is rather absurd to suggest that Roberts and Donaldson did not consult with the Greek version of Justin's First Apology before their translation.
That would be absurd. :D

If you read my post very carefully, you will notice that I was suggesting that the Greek must be consulted. The giveaway is the part where I say, "The Greek must be consulted."
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Bernard Muller
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Re: How late might the gospels be?

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to Ben,
Then how does the meaning differ from what we find in Mark ("in those days, after that tribulation" versus the same basic description that Mark gives of the tribulation followed by "next")?
Mk 13:18-19 "Pray that it may not happen in winter.
For in those days there will be such tribulation as has not been from the beginning of the creation which God created until now, and never will be."

"Those days" are no longer than part of a year and refer to the events of the spring, summer & early fall of 70 in Judea & Berytus (therefore the prayers were heard ;) )
Consequently the tribulation is of a short duration.
Mk 13:24 "But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light,"
"Those days" are (about) the same than the ones in 13:19.

About shortening the days of the tribulation: that may be referring to the fact the Romans did not go on about massacring or enslaving the Jews, as they did for the ones found in Jerusalem, starting in Antioch (in winter), where they were expected to do that (Josephus' Wars 7.5).

Cordially, Bernard
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Ben C. Smith
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Re: How late might the gospels be?

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Bernard Muller wrote: Wed Jan 24, 2018 6:43 pm to Ben,
Then how does the meaning differ from what we find in Mark ("in those days, after that tribulation" versus the same basic description that Mark gives of the tribulation followed by "next")?
Mk 13:18-19 "Pray that it may not happen in winter.
For in those days there will be such tribulation as has not been from the beginning of the creation which God created until now, and never will be."

"Those days" are no longer than part of a year and refer to the events of the spring, summer & early fall of 70 in Judea & Berytus (therefore the prayers were heard ;) )
Consequently the tribulation is of a short duration.
Mk 13:24 "But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light,"
"Those days" are (about) the same than the ones in 13:19.

About shortening the days of the tribulation: that may be referring to the fact the Romans did not go on about massacring or enslaving the Jews, as they did for the ones found in Jerusalem, starting in Antioch (in winter), where they were expected to do that (Josephus' Wars 7.5).

Cordially, Bernard
But the days are cut short in Matthew, too (24.22).
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Bernard Muller
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Re: How late might the gospels be?

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to Ben,
But the days are cut short in Matthew, too (24.22)
But here, that is referring to the great tribulation, when the Jews were in disarray, until the leadership & the teaching of the Pharisees changed that.
As I said before, "Matthew" did not want to appear tampering with "Mark" wording, but rather modified it as little as possible.
And I just noticed: the tribulation in gMark becomes the great tribulation in gMatthew. Maybe "Matthew" wanted to differentiate his great tribulation with the one in gMark?

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Re: How late might the gospels be?

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Bernard Muller wrote: Wed Jan 24, 2018 7:35 pm to Ben,
But the days are cut short in Matthew, too (24.22)
But here, that is referring to the great tribulation, when the Jews were in disarray, until the leadership & the teaching of the Pharisees changed that.
Where in Matthew are you getting this stuff about the tribulation having to do with the disarray before the Pharisees set things in order?
And I just noticed: the tribulation in gMark becomes the great tribulation in gMatthew. Maybe "Matthew" wanted to differentiate his great tribulation with the one in gMark?
Or maybe "great tribulation" is just a good name for a tribulation such as has never been seen before?

It feels to me as if you are reading your dating schema into the text rather than reading it out of the text:

Matthew 24.15-29a: 15 "Therefore when [ὅταν] you see the abomination of desolation which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), 16 then [τότε, "at that time," correlated with ὅταν, as is common] let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains; 17 let him who is on the housetop not go down to get the things out that are in his house; 18 and let him who is in the field not turn back to get his cloak. 19 But woe to those who are with child and to those who nurse babes in those days! 20 But pray that your flight may not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath; 21 for [γάρ] then [τότε, "at that time"] there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever shall. 22 And unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days shall be cut short. 23 Then [τότε, "at that time"] if anyone says to you, 'Behold, here is the Christ,' or 'There He is,' do not believe him. 24 For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect. 25 Behold, I have told you in advance. 26 If therefore they say to you, 'Behold, He is in the wilderness,' do not go forth, or, 'Behold, He is in the inner rooms,' do not believe them. 27 For just as the lightning comes from the east, and flashes even to the west, so shall the coming of the Son of Man be. 28 Wherever the corpse is, there the vultures will gather. 29a But immediately after [εὐθέως δὲ μετὰ] the tribulation of those days....

The great tribulation is not coming after the days of flight; wishing for your flight not to be on a Sabbath day or during the winter makes little sense if the tribulation in question is coming after your flight, no matter what. (The γάρ connects the tribulation to the prayer: pray for these small favors because the tribulation will be great.) Rather, the idea is that it will already be bad enough (a "great tribulation," after all), so you may as well pray that it will not be at a time which would make things even harder. In other words, τότε is best thought of as "at that time," the time of the abomination of desolation, the flight to the mountains, and all of that. Likewise, the τότε in verse 23 is also best thought of as "at that time," during the time of tribulation ("those days" which have been cut short), since the cosmic signs and the parousia are said to come immediately after the tribulation, leaving no room for the false prophets if they pop up only (next in order) after the tribulation period.
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