How late might the gospels be?

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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rakovsky
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Re: How late might the gospels be?

Post by rakovsky »

andrewcriddle wrote: Fri Feb 02, 2018 11:52 am
rakovsky wrote: Wed Jan 31, 2018 12:59 pm

It turns out that my information was wrong about this. Papias doesn't say in what I found that Mark wrote his gospel after Peter's death. And Eusebius claims that Mark was writing his gospel while Peter was still preaching:
Papias said Mark scribed Peter’s teachings
...
“And the elder used to say this, Mark became Peter’s interpreter and wrote accurately all that he remembered, not, indeed, in order, of the things said and done by the Lord. For he had not heard the Lord, nor had followed him, but later on, followed Peter, who used to give teaching as necessity demanded but not making, as it were, an arrangement of the Lord’s oracles, so that Mark did nothing wrong in thus writing down single points as he remembered them. For to one thing he gave attention, to leave out nothing of what he had heard and to make no false statements in them.”

Eusebius also wrote an additional detail (Ecclesiastical History Book 6 Chapter 14) related to Mark’s work with Peter:

“The Gospel according to Mark had this occasion. As Peter had preached the Word publicly at Rome, and declared the Gospel by the Spirit, many who were present requested that Mark, who had followed him for a long time and remembered his sayings, should write them out. And having composed the Gospel he gave it to those who had requested it. When Peter learned of this, he neither directly forbade nor encouraged it.”
http://coldcasechristianity.com/2014/is ... tle-peter/
The fact that Papias is writing out from memory what Peter said, implies that Peter is either dead or gone away somewhere.

Andrew Criddle
That makes sense. It does not necessarily imply that Peter had been dead when Mark was composing this.

My research on the prophecies of the Messiah's resurrection: http://rakovskii.livejournal.com
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Ben C. Smith
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Re: How late might the gospels be?

Post by Ben C. Smith »

Bernard Muller wrote: Sun Jan 28, 2018 4:28 pm to Ben,
I have another argument about what I wrote before:
Let's notice "Matthew" did not repeat "those days" in 24:21, most likely for not linking his great tribulation with the events of 70:

Mk 13:17-19
And alas for those who are with child and for those who give suck in those days!
Pray that it may not happen in winter.
For (in) those days there will be such tribulation as has not been from the beginning of the creation which God created until now, and never will be.


To be compared with Mt 24:19-21
And alas for those who are with child and for those who give suck in those days!
Pray that your flight may not be in winter or on a sabbath.
For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be.
"(in) those days" is equivalent to "at that time". But "Matthew" did not repeat these words from gMark. Instead he replaced them by "then" ('tote'), which certainly can mean "next", as you did mention "By NT times τότε could mean "then" in the sense of "next" or "thereupon" or "thereafter,"" (and, in gMatthew, 'tote' means "next" in most cases when it is followed by a verb in the future tense).

Essentially, in 24:21, "Matthew" got rid of the equivalent of "at that time" in order to have it replaced by 'tote', which certainly can mean "next".
What matters is the context.
For me the context includes the Pharisees becoming leaders, and that before the great tribulation is over (because that tribulation is followed immediately by the end: 24:29).
While I still do not buy your arguments about the Pharisees, and while I still find your observations based on τότε to be inconclusive, maybe you are right, Bernard, about Matthew thinking that he was living in the tribulation period:

Matthew 24.22: 22 Unless those days had been cut short, no flesh would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short [κολοβωθήσονται].

Mark 13.20: 20 Unless the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect, whom He chose, He shortened [ἐκολόβωσεν] the days.

I cannot remember what you said about this difference before, so if I am repeating you I apologize.

Maybe Mark's harsh past tense implied, for Matthew, that the tribulation was in the past, and Matthew wished to make sure the reader understood that it was not over yet: the days "will be shortened," but not yet, because they are still going on.
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Charles Wilson
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Re: How late might the gospels be?

Post by Charles Wilson »

Bernard Muller wrote: Sun Jan 28, 2018 4:28 pmFor me the context includes the Pharisees becoming leaders, and that before the great tribulation is over (because that tribulation is followed immediately by the end: 24:29).
Josephus, A..., 13, 15, 5:

" "Do thou, therefore," said he, "when thou art come to Jerusalem, send for the leading men among them, and show them my body, and with great appearance of sincerity, give them leave to use it as they themselves please, whether they will dishonor the dead body by refusing it burial, as having severely suffered by my means, or whether in their anger they will offer any other injury to that body. Promise them also that thou wilt do nothing without them in the affairs of the kingdom..."

The fire was lit when "Eleazar" was at the banquet with Hyrcanus and Eleazar told Hyrcanus that Hyrcanus should give up the High Priesthood since he was the offspring of a "Comfort Girl" and a Greek. The Hasmonean Line is now in opposition to the Pharisees. Queen Salome follows Jannaeus' requests and the Pharisees are now embedded into the Jerusalem Bureaucracy. Slight disagreement on Order and Sequence since the Tribulation is with Jannaeus and the Pharisees are given Power just after the death of Jannaeus by Salome (The fighters of Jannaeus are given the Citadels...).

Nonetheless Bernard, I believe that you are correct here.

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Bernard Muller
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Re: How late might the gospels be?

Post by Bernard Muller »

To Ben,
For my dating of gMatthew, open http://historical-jesus.info/appd.html#gosdating then "find" on: What about the dating of the other gospels?
Note: here, to my surprise, I took the "then" in Mt 24:21 as meaning "at that time".

I found that the Didache (without the Christian additions), the completed Revelation (both written during Domitian's rule) and Barnabas' epistle (written during Nerva's short reign) include passages appearing in gMatthew.
For the Didache, open http://historical-jesus.info/gospels.html, then "find" on: 6.
For Barnabas' epistle, open same web page, then "find" on: 7.
For Revelation, open http://historical-jesus.info/rjohn.html#dating

Cordially, Bernard
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