How late might the gospels be?

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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Jax
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Re: How late might the gospels be?

Post by Jax »

archibald wrote: Tue Jan 16, 2018 12:32 am
Jax wrote: Mon Jan 15, 2018 3:54 pm
archibald wrote: Mon Jan 15, 2018 6:17 am I might say one general thing though. Imho, it might be easier, I'm thinking, to tie the NT to the 1st Jewish War than to the Bar Kokhba Revolt. But I haven't looked into the latter before now. I think it was Jax who recommended to me a book doing the former, and I haven't followed that up yet either. So many theories, so little time. :(
Nope. Not me. :)
Then I Misunderstood that the book you suggested (and which I have ordered), 'A Shift in Time' by Lena Einhorn, doesn't involve a shift in time forward to events closer to the 1st Jewish War.
I stand corrected. I misunderstood your quote. :(
archibald
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Re: How late might the gospels be?

Post by archibald »

Jax wrote: Tue Jan 16, 2018 6:41 am
archibald wrote: Tue Jan 16, 2018 12:32 am
Jax wrote: Mon Jan 15, 2018 3:54 pm
archibald wrote: Mon Jan 15, 2018 6:17 am I might say one general thing though. Imho, it might be easier, I'm thinking, to tie the NT to the 1st Jewish War than to the Bar Kokhba Revolt. But I haven't looked into the latter before now. I think it was Jax who recommended to me a book doing the former, and I haven't followed that up yet either. So many theories, so little time. :(
Nope. Not me. :)
Then I Misunderstood that the book you suggested (and which I have ordered), 'A Shift in Time' by Lena Einhorn, doesn't involve a shift in time forward to events closer to the 1st Jewish War.
I stand corrected. I misunderstood your quote. :(
Not to worry. I'm not sure which of us was mixed up. Maybe me. But I'll look forward to reading the book in any case and let you know what I think of it. :)
hakeem
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Re: How late might the gospels be?

Post by hakeem »

Paul the Uncertain wrote: Tue Jan 16, 2018 3:59 am
Nobody is setting that aside. You and I agree about the literalness of Paul's audiences' expectations. The current issue, however, is whether the composition date of an apparently later work than Paul's letters "must have" come within a certain time frame......
First of all the so-called letters of Paul have no known actual time frame in the 1st century. All we have are 2nd century or later manuscripts of letters under the name of Paul. People have assumed or speculated without a shred of historical evidence that the supposed letters of Paul were written in the 1st century.


The very chronology and dating of the so-called letters under the name of Paul cannot be attempted without using the Gospels and Acts of the Apostles.


The version of the Jesus story in gMark must be earlier than the version of the Jesus story in the supposed letters of Paul.
archibald
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Re: How late might the gospels be?

Post by archibald »

MrMacSon wrote: Tue Jan 16, 2018 1:51 am .... if aspects of the NT narratives are indeed based on the texts of Josephus (and others), those NT narratives would have to have been written after Josephus's texts/books were circulated ie. after 80-95 AD.
Quick thought. Assuming one can find parallels between the gospels and Josephus, how would one know which influenced which?
Bernard Muller
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Re: How late might the gospels be?

Post by Bernard Muller »

to MrMacSon,
What congregation? What community? Where?
Does that matter? Of course, the author would not indicate to what community he wrote his gospel. Also, he would not say he was the author. The gospel was likely arranged to be "found" in the community and with no known author and with no accurate provenance (if any).
What evidence is there the gospel of Mark is addressed to a congregation or a community?
To whom you think it was addressed? Are you those who think that once written, the gospel would be copied a lot and then send all over the Christian world?
Where is there evidence the aftermath of the fall of Jerusalem caused problems in Mark's community?
I already explained that on this thread. See my previous post.

Cordially, Bernard
I believe freedom of expression should not be curtailed
hakeem
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Re: How late might the gospels be?

Post by hakeem »

archibald wrote: Tue Jan 16, 2018 1:23 am
But 'Some of you will see it happening before you die' is a testable forecast.

And some Thessalonians appeared to expect it, which is difficult, imo, to set aside, even if here we are not doing the epistles of Paul.
Please name a Thessalonian who expected to "see it happening before death"?

There is no historical evidence that anyone in Thessalonica ever saw or read gMark or supposed letters from a character called Paul before c 70 CE.

Anyone who has read gMark and the Pauline Corpus would easily recognise that the stories of Jesus are all implausible.

The claim that Jesus said things will happen before they die is really no different to the story that Jesus claimed a fig tree would die because it had no fruits.

The stories of Jesus are all non-historical and the author of gMark is unknown.
Bernard Muller
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Re: How late might the gospels be?

Post by Bernard Muller »

Wheh! And they say mythicists are the conspiracy theorists!!
What conspiracy? The writing of the gospel (in secret) would involve one person only. That person then would claim to have found the gospel (where he would have planted it) or even arrange for an unsuspecting somebody else to find it.

Cordially, Bernard
I believe freedom of expression should not be curtailed
archibald
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Re: How late might the gospels be?

Post by archibald »

hakeem wrote: Tue Jan 16, 2018 9:14 am Please name a Thessalonian who expected to "see it happening before death"?
Tim son of Trevor for starters.
Stuart
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Re: How late might the gospels be?

Post by Stuart »

Stuart wrote: Sun Jan 14, 2018 4:05 pm I'll ask Dr. Detering directly today if he still holds that view. It was paper from almost two decades ago when he wrote that.

I think he was flat wrong about the statue for two basic reasons:
1) there is no evidence at all that Hadrian placed statues of himself in front of any temples. But there is strong evidence Antoninus did, as part of his several year campaign to get his predecessor deified by a Senate that despised Hadrian (hence he was named Pius for his filial piety)
2) there is strong evidence the Roman temples where statues would have been placed in Aelia Capitolina were not on Temple Mount, but within the walls of the city (the location of the square where the Roman temples were is actually pretty obvious from the Madaba map - why place it on an empty hill where nobody could see it behind that wall?).

All that really does is suggest the passage is more likely drawn from Antiochus IV Epiphanes episode projected as a repeated history to come. If it is about Bar Kokhba era, then that the myth of an equestrian statue of Hadrian may well have dated from as early as the middle of the reign of Antoninus.
Dr. Detering's answer when I asked if he still held that position in light of other recently emphasized evidence -which I summarized for him- roughly translated and paraphrased:

"Very interesting question! Understand I need some time to think about. I'm working on ... (unrelated) "
“’That was excellently observed’, say I, when I read a passage in an author, where his opinion agrees with mine. When we differ, there I pronounce him to be mistaken.” - Jonathan Swift
Charles Wilson
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Re: How late might the gospels be?

Post by Charles Wilson »

hakeem wrote: Tue Jan 16, 2018 9:14 amAnyone who has read gMark and the Pauline Corpus would easily recognise that the stories of Jesus are all implausible.
hakeem --

With all due respect to you, I believe you are making major Category Errors in your analysis. Your statement concerning "...stories of Jesus..." is false on the face of it to many believers. This implies that, in order to find Truth Value in what you state, a "deeper" analysis is required. Yet, that is not what your assert: "Anyone who has read gMark...". That is false as well. I will even meet you halfway and agree that, as statements of fact, (many) "stories of Jesus" are implausible. That, however, reduces to the ideas of "I like chocolate but don't like vanilla". This is countered by, "No, the more correct statement should be that one should like vanilla and not chocolate...".

This gets us nowhere.
The claim that Jesus said things will happen before they die is really no different to the story that Jesus claimed a fig tree would die because it had no fruits.
In order to find meaning in this, another step needs to be taken (to get all Hegelian about it...). If this is "simply" a record of someone recording the actions of a "Jesus" character, not much more can be said. "Ahhh, but Jesus is saying something much deeper here!" What? Once you open the stories up for analysis, you begin to find more and more plausibility - HISTORICAL plausibility, by way of Symbolic Assignment.

Assume, for example, that Hyam Maccoby was on the right track: These are POLITICAL stories. You make Symbolic Assignments: "Fig Trees" may be assigned to political families. Perhaps Roman political families. Then, an immediate symbolic reduction would find, in that time frame, the Julio-Claudians were to be overthrown and the Flavians were Ascending.

OK. That's an interesting flavor of ice cream. Is there anything else that might support this? Yes. Much more.
The stories of Jesus are all non-historical and the author of gMark is unknown.
False. Can you find the death of the Hasmonean Rulers in the NT? I can.

Mark 9: 42 (RSV):
[42] "Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him if a great millstone were hung round his neck and he were thrown into the sea.

Did anyone ever throw great millstones into the sea? Yes. Herod did. This verse is a Herod story. Very Historical, if Josephus is to be believed. "Why would we doubt Josephus?" This also is a request for a deeper examination, as the stories of Mark demand examination.

Here's one:

"Islam arose because of agreements between Flavius Constantinus Heraclius and the tribes in the eastern sections of the Roman empire."

That's True, by the way. God couldn't get his Worship Structures correct in 3 tries over 600 years?

There is something else going on here, hakeem. Yes, the "Jesus" stories are implausible. That, however, is a request for an examination of those stories, not a dismissal.

CW
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