Everyone will be salted with fire.

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Ben C. Smith
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Everyone will be salted with fire.

Post by Ben C. Smith »

Subject: A matter of style (for Kunigunde).
Ben C. Smith wrote: Tue Dec 12, 2017 5:47 pm
Mark 9.33-50:

A1 33 And they came to Capernaum; and when He was in the house, He began to question them, "What were you discussing on the way?" 34 But they kept silent, for on the way they had discussed with one another which of them was the greatest. 35 And sitting down, He called the twelve and said to them, "If anyone wants to be first, he shall be last of all, and servant of all." 36 And taking a child, He set him before them, and taking him in His arms, He said to them, 37 "Whoever receives one child like this in My name receives Me; and whoever receives Me does not receive Me, but Him who sent Me."

B 38 John said to Him, "Teacher, we saw someone casting out demons in Your name, and we tried to hinder him because he was not following us." 39 But Jesus said, "Do not hinder him, for there is no one who shall perform a miracle in My name, and be able soon afterward to speak evil of Me. 40 For he who is not against us is for us. 41 For whoever gives you a cup of water to drink because of your name as followers of Christ, truly I say to you, he shall not lose his reward."

A2 42 "And whoever causes one of these little ones who believe to stumble, it would be better for him if, with a heavy millstone hung around his neck, he had been cast into the sea."

43 "And if your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life crippled, than having your two hands, to go into hell, into the unquenchable fire, 44 where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched. 45 And if your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life lame, than having your two feet, to be cast into hell, 46 where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched. 47 And if your eye causes you to stumble, cast it out; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes, to be cast into hell, 48 where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched."

49 "For everyone will be salted with fire. 50 Salt is good; but if the salt becomes unsalty, with what will you make it salty again? Have salt in yourselves, and be at peace with one another."

Discussing that passage in Mark on the other thread reminded me of one of the most difficult verses to interpret in the entire Bible: "For everyone will be salted with fire" (Mark 9.49). The manuscript record makes clear that the scribes did not know what to do with it, either:

Sinaiticus: πᾶς γὰρ ἐν πυρὶ ἁλισθήσεται.
Alexandrinus: πᾶς γὰρ πυρὶ ἁλισθήσεται, καὶ πᾶσα θυσία ἁλὶ ἁλισθήσεται.
Vaticanus: πᾶς γὰρ πυρὶ ἁλισθήσεται.
Ephaemi rescriptus: πᾶς γὰρ ἐν πυρὶ ἁλισθήσεται, καὶ πᾶσα θυσία ἁλὶ ἁλισθήσεται.
Bezae: πᾶσα γὰρ θυσία ἁλὶ ἁλισθήσεται.
Washingtonianus: πᾶς γὰρ ἁλὶ ἁλισγηθήσεται.
Byzantine: πᾶς γὰρ πυρὶ ἁλισθήσεται, καὶ πᾶσα θυσία ἁλὶ ἁλισθήσεται.

The modern critical editions usually accept Vaticanus or Sinaiticus as representing the original Greek text here, simply because the other variants can be most easily explained as the scribes grasping for whatever they could lay hold of as the interpretive key to the saying. Invariably they seemed to latch on to sacrificial precedents:

Leviticus 2.11-13: 11 No grain offering, which you bring to the Lord, shall be made with leaven, for you shall not offer up in smoke any leaven or any honey as an offering by fire to the Lord. 12 As an offering of first fruits you shall bring them to the Lord, but they shall not ascend for a soothing aroma on the altar. 13 Every grain offering of yours, moreover, you shall season with salt, so that the salt of the covenant of your God shall not be lacking from your grain offering; with all your offerings you shall offer salt.

This was a natural connection to make. Alexandrinus and the Byzantine tradition both have what Vaticanus has, but go on to add that "every sacrifice will be salted with salt." Ephraemi has what Sinaiticus has, and then adds the same thing as Alexandrinus. Bezae cuts right to the chase, averring that "every sacrifice will be salted with salt," thus eliminating the confusing fire altogether. Washingtonianus goes in a slightly different direction when it claims that "everyone will be salted with salt," whatever that means.

But none of those options removes the difficulty of what is agreed to be the most likely original reading: πᾶς γὰρ [ἐν] πυρὶ ἁλισθήσεται. What does it mean for someone to be salted with fire? After perusing (yet again) several commentaries on Mark and finding (yet again) the usual interpretations to be lacking, I return (yet again) to what I consider to be the simplest, cleanest solution to the problem, one suggested by Weston W. Fields in his article, "Everyone Will Be Salted With Fire," in Grace Theological Journal 6.2. Fields opines that the answer is not to be found in the Greek; rather, it is to be found by back translating into Hebrew.

In the Hebrew scriptures, salt has several different symbolic significances, one of which is destruction:

Deuteronomy 29.23: 23 All its land is brimstone and salt [וָמֶלַח], a burning waste, unsown and unproductive, and no grass grows in it, like the overthrow of Sodom and Gomorrah, Admah and Zeboiim, which the LORD overthrew in His anger and in His wrath.

Judges 9.45: 45 And Abimelech fought against the city all that day, and he captured the city and killed the people who were in it; then he razed the city and sowed it with salt [מֶֽלַח].

Psalm 107.34 (106.34 LXX): 34 A fruitful land into a salt waste [לִמְלֵחָ֑ה], because of the wickedness of those who dwell in it.

In that second example, sowing the ground with salt is part of destroying the city forever. To salt something, in this case, is to destroy it. We find this exact usage of the equivalent verb (same stem: מלח) elsewhere in the scriptures:

Isaiah 51.6: 6 "Lift up your eyes to the sky, then look to the earth beneath; for the sky will vanish [נִמְלָ֙חוּ] like smoke, and the earth will wear out like a garment, and its inhabitants will die in like manner, but My salvation shall be forever, and My righteousness shall not wane."

Here the verb uses the Hebrew niphal verb stem, which usually indicates a passive voice. This line literally claims that the sky will be salted, and what it means is that the sky will be destroyed (will vanish, as the translation above renders it, or will "be torn to pieces," as William Lee Holladay says in his lexical entry for this verse).

So, in Hebrew, to salt something can mean to destroy something. And that fits the context perfectly:

Mark 9.43-49: 43 "And if your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life crippled, than having your two hands, to go into hell, into the unquenchable fire, 44 where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched. 45 And if your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life lame, than having your two feet, to be cast into hell, 46 where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched. 47 And if your eye causes you to stumble, cast it out; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes, to be cast into hell, 48 where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched. 49 For everyone [that is, everyone just mentioned: those in hell] will be salted/destroyed with fire."

This nifty reconstruction points to a Semitic origin for the sentence (as is apparent for so much else in the gospel of Mark), which lost its meaning as it was translated into Greek, where salting and destroying are not good synonyms. And then the scribes had to make the best sense of it that they could.

I grouped the pericopes in my quotation of Mark 9.33-50 as per their significance in Greek, but in Hebrew the sayings about salt in verses 49-50 are linked by catchword ("salt") only, not by theme. By theme, verse 49 goes with what precedes it, the description of punishment in hell, where, after all, "everyone will be destroyed by fire."

Ben.

ETA: Fields does point out that, since "Aramaic also has the verb מלח, if one prefers to posit Aramaic rather than Hebrew originals for the sources behind the Greek Synoptics, the interpretation suggested here would probably still be valid." But my Aramaic is pretty much nonexistent, so I cannot comment on that.
Last edited by Ben C. Smith on Tue Dec 19, 2017 8:24 am, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: Everyone will be salted with fire.

Post by Secret Alias »

I think Baarda has successfully argued that the origin of this passage in Aramaic - he suggests that the greek verb ἁλισθήσεται (“will be salted”) may derive from confusion between the Aramaic verbs לבתּ (“to spice, season”) and לבט (“to immerse, to bathe for purification”). It is one of the strongest arguments out there. Will try to link to it. But Baarda is and was a genius.
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Charles Wilson
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Re: Everyone will be salted with fire.

Post by Charles Wilson »

Mark 9:

[42] "Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him if a great millstone were hung round his neck and he were thrown into the sea.

This is a Herod Story. "Did anyone ever throw "great millstones" into the sea?" (Aramaic: "Millstone of a donkey) Herod did, in building the Safe Water Port at Caesarea (See also: Matthew 7, "Enter through the narrow gate...")

[43] And if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go to hell, to the unquenchable fire.
[45] And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life lame than with two feet to be thrown into hell.
[47] And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell,

"...it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God..." is a marker for the place where Priests may gather but not the Scribes and the Pharisees:

Matthew 23: 13 (RSV):

[13] "But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because you shut the kingdom of heaven against men; for you neither enter yourselves, nor allow those who would enter to go in.

Those who enter the Realm of Heaven/Kingdom of Heaven/Kingdom of God are the Priests and are without blemish. The IRONY is that at the 4 BCE Slaughter, only a few within the Temple area are saved and it is evident that the few who were saved had wounds and injuries. They made it through the "Narrow Door" and were able to "Turn as a child".

[48] where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.
[49] For every one will be salted with fire.
[50] Salt is good; but if the salt has lost its saltness, how will you season it? Have salt in yourselves, and be at peace with one another."

So...What would this mean? It points to the Return of the Priest 12 years later. The Mishmarot Rotation places the Groups Bilgah and Immer in Jerusalem for Passover again. Jairus begs the Priest for one more attempt. The Priest knows that it will mean his death to return but he cannot refuse. There were those hot with rage (in Galilee) at the Death in 4 BCE and they must have sworn to avenge the Deaths of the 3000. It is now, however, 12 years later and those who were ready to Avenge are not nearly so now:

Luke 9: 57 - 62 (RSV):

[57] As they were going along the road, a man said to him, "I will follow you wherever you go."
[58] And Jesus said to him, "Foxes have holes, and birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man has nowhere to lay his head."
[59] To another he said, "Follow me." But he said, "Lord, let me first go and bury my father."
[60] But he said to him, "Leave the dead to bury their own dead; but as for you, go and proclaim the kingdom of God."
[61] Another said, "I will follow you, Lord; but let me first say farewell to those at my home."
[62] Jesus said to him, "No one who puts his hand to the plow and looks back is fit for the kingdom of God."

The salt has lost its seasoning.

CW
Last edited by Charles Wilson on Thu Dec 14, 2017 11:01 am, edited 3 times in total.
Secret Alias
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Re: Everyone will be salted with fire.

Post by Secret Alias »

That's the single fucking stupidest explanation ever written at this forum which means it's outperformed your last 100 posts.
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Charles Wilson
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Re: Everyone will be salted with fire.

Post by Charles Wilson »

Thank you, SA. Your kind words mean a lot to me.

CW
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A Rare Medium

Post by JoeWallack »

Kisses of Fire From Abba
Ben C. Smith wrote: Thu Dec 14, 2017 8:50 am
Mark 9.43-49: 43 "And if your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life crippled, than having your two hands, to go into hell, into the unquenchable fire, 44 where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched. 45 And if your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life lame, than having your two feet, to be cast into hell, 46 where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched. 47 And if your eye causes you to stumble, cast it out; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes, to be cast into hell, 48 where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched. 49 For everyone [that is, everyone just mentioned: those in hell] will be salted/destroyed with fire."

JW:
Salt is a preservative. The Hellfire will preserve the torture. So what's the problem?

Our clever original Gospeller uses literal food terms to figuratively apply to people. Jesus' body and blood are consecrated bread and wine, Jesus declares all meat clean is Jesus declaring all flesh (people) free (from ritual law), tasting death is tasting death and, as Gene Wilder said in the classic Young Frankenstein, "euchacetera, euchacetera, euchacetera.

What I find interesting here is that "Mark" (author) restricts the usage of "fire" to the negative, such as [Solo]Peter/Satan warming himself by the fire of Satan[/Solo]. Our subsequent authors very much want to use fire positively with (the) holy spirit. But Simon (Paul) didn't saay.


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Ben C. Smith
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Re: A Rare Medium

Post by Ben C. Smith »

JoeWallack wrote: Sat Dec 16, 2017 3:53 pm Kisses of Fire From Abba
Ben C. Smith wrote: Thu Dec 14, 2017 8:50 am
Mark 9.43-49: 43 "And if your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life crippled, than having your two hands, to go into hell, into the unquenchable fire, 44 where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched. 45 And if your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life lame, than having your two feet, to be cast into hell, 46 where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched. 47 And if your eye causes you to stumble, cast it out; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes, to be cast into hell, 48 where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched. 49 For everyone [that is, everyone just mentioned: those in hell] will be salted/destroyed with fire."

JW:
Salt is a preservative. The Hellfire will preserve the torture. So what's the problem?
The problem here would be that fire is normally considered an agent of destruction, not of preservation. "Everyone will be preserved by fire." That seems like a non sequitur, and I doubt that the author intended such a thing.
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Re: Everyone will be salted with fire.

Post by Secret Alias »

Thank you, SA. Your kind words mean a lot to me.
If you're going to be consistently obtuse, arguing that the early Christian texts are about something completely unrelated to early Christianity then at least stop being so bloody predictable. Find how a parable might be arguing for microwave popcorn or the invention of television, how a Bible passage might predict the score in the NFL playoffs. Something interesting, entertaining, novel. As Oscar Wilde noted 'Most people are boring and stupid.' Don't be boring and stupid.
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iskander
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Re: Everyone will be salted with fire.

Post by iskander »

The word " fire" is one of the names ofYHWH ,
FIRE.PNG
FIRE.PNG (205.02 KiB) Viewed 6095 times
It was also used in the Christian literature
"In the First Unspoken Sermon, MacDonald seems to be saying that the word “fire” is the manifestation of God: “the burning of God, the consuming fire of Love”, as in the “burning bush “episode.

God is found in the darkness illuminated by the visible dark flame of his love .Eventually all is God and suffering exists no more: “Then indeed wilt thou be all in all.” "
viewtopic.php?f=10&t=42&start=20
iskander
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Re: Everyone will be salted with fire.

Post by iskander »

iskander wrote: Sat Dec 16, 2017 4:32 pm The word " fire" is one of the names ofYHWH ,
FIRE.PNG

It was also used in the Christian literature
"In the First Unspoken Sermon, MacDonald seems to be saying that the word “fire” is the manifestation of God: “the burning of God, the consuming fire of Love”, as in the “burning bush “episode.

God is found in the darkness illuminated by the visible dark flame of his love .Eventually all is God and suffering exists no more: “Then indeed wilt thou be all in all.” "
viewtopic.php?f=10&t=42&start=20
Also in Hebrews 12:29
29 for indeed our God is a consuming fire
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