How Do You Disprove Mythicism?

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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MrMacSon
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Re: How Do You Disprove Mythicism?

Post by MrMacSon »

Secret Alias wrote: Wed Dec 13, 2017 12:47 pm McGrath keeps comparing Jesus Mythicism with 'Young Earth Creationism', but the situation is more like that surrounding the Obama Birther situation.
The Obama birth situation is a false analogy, as is flat earthism, as they are both simple-dichotomy analogies.

The-NT-Jesus' historicity (or not) is also a dichotomy, but the it is not clear cut because of the traditions of both the information and the consensus about the significance of the information. Young earth creationism has two dimensions: the age of the earth (and the universe) and the notion of origins (ie. genesis).

In some ways some aspects of young earth creationism can be seen to be analogous to Jesus mythicism, but only by way of a superficial sound-bite: objective assessment of information provides evidence to show young earthism is extremely implausible (as is the Genesis story of creation of life on earth), and objective assessment of information about a historical 1st C. NT human-Jesus shows the paucity of information about 'him'.

There is also information about the transmission of the narratives about the NT-Jesus over time. The veracity and corresponding paucity of information is significant.
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GakuseiDon
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Re: How Do You Disprove Mythicism?

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Secret Alias wrote: Tue Dec 12, 2017 6:12 amI am not saying that this is the right answer to solve the original 'Christ myth' but surely we can't be so stupid to say that because Carrier failed, Jesus is proven to be a historical person.
Dr Carrier himself says something along those lines, though using "best explanation" rather than "proven". In his OHJ, he compares his minimal historicist theory as the best HJ theory against his own mythicist theory as the best MJ one, presenting them as the best two possible explanations. If one is refuted, the other becomes the best explanation.

From Carrier's OHJ, page 52:
Accordingly, we need to wipe the slate clean and start over, using a humbler, more informed and more methodologically sound approach. Only if that effort then fails (without being made into a straw man all over again) can it be concluded that mythicism tout court has been refuted. And then we can get on with the study of the historical Jesus.
Having said that, I do like his approach. Although Carrier is a dreadful writer when it comes to him explaining complex ideas, I like the way OHJ is laid out, with its background knowledge section, then going through the literature to see if the literature supports one side or another. I'd like to see a response from the historicist side along the same lines. It nicely frames the debates springing from the literature.
It is really important, in life, to concentrate our minds on our enthusiasms, not on our dislikes. -- Roger Pearse
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GakuseiDon
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Re: How Do You Disprove Mythicism?

Post by GakuseiDon »

MrMacSon wrote: Wed Dec 13, 2017 1:57 pmIn some ways some aspects of young earth creationism can be seen to be analogous to Jesus mythicism, but only by way of a superficial sound-bite: objective assessment of information provides evidence to show young earthism is extremely implausible (as is the Genesis story of creation of life on earth), and objective assessment of information about a historical 1st C. NT human-Jesus shows the paucity of information about 'him'.
No, the greatest similarity is how each treats the proponents of the opposite view: as part of a 'guild', people committed to some dogma to see things that way. If only they could see how they are wrong in using the methods that they are using! Then they'd see the errors in their thinking.
It is really important, in life, to concentrate our minds on our enthusiasms, not on our dislikes. -- Roger Pearse
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Ben C. Smith
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Re: How Do You Disprove Mythicism?

Post by Ben C. Smith »

GakuseiDon wrote: Wed Dec 13, 2017 5:47 pmHaving said that, I do like his approach. Although Carrier is a dreadful writer when it comes to him explaining complex ideas, I like the way OHJ is laid out, with its background knowledge section, then going through the literature to see if the literature supports one side or another.
I agree. I once wrote:
Ben C. Smith wrote: Tue Mar 08, 2016 4:14 pmOne thing I really like about On the Historicity of Jesus is Carrier's use of those preliminary background Elements that he enumerates and details in chapters 4-5 (pages 65-234). Basically, each Element is a proposition that his overall thesis will assume in order to arrive at a conclusion. He does mount positive arguments for the Elements in their respective descriptions, but throughout the rest of the book he is able to refer back by Element number to knowledge already presumed for the point currently being argued for.
I find the method to be very handy.
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Jax
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Re: How Do You Disprove Mythicism?

Post by Jax »

GakuseiDon wrote: Wed Dec 13, 2017 5:47 pm
Having said that, I do like his approach. Although Carrier is a dreadful writer when it comes to him explaining complex ideas, I like the way OHJ is laid out, with its background knowledge section, then going through the literature to see if the literature supports one side or another. I'd like to see a response from the historicist side along the same lines. It nicely frames the debates springing from the literature.
Agreed.

Also what Ben said. :thumbup:
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