Larry Hurtado vs Neil Godfrey

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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Ben C. Smith
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Re: Larry Hurtado vs Neil Godfrey

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Bernard Muller wrote: Thu Dec 07, 2017 9:43 pm
We know about Paul first from Marcion and probably Irenaeus Adv Haer 3, 1(?)
Let's not forget about the Epistula Apostolorum, dated 140-150.
Good one.
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MrMacSon
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Re: Larry Hurtado vs Neil Godfrey

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Ben C. Smith wrote: Thu Dec 07, 2017 2:39 pm .. Given that Marcion is commonly thought to have done his thing a bit after 140, it stands to reason that 1 Clement has a good claim to being prior to Marcion. If so, then our first knowledge of Paul does not come from Marcion.
Sure. 1 Clement could well be our first reflection of Paul.

Though I've seen reference to Marcion having been thought to have done his thing before 135-40.


1 Clem 5:3-7

3 Let us set before our eyes the good Apostles.

4 There was Peter who by reason of unrighteous jealousy endured not one but many labors, and thus having borne his testimony went to
his appointed place of glory.

5 By reason of jealousy and strife Paul by his example pointed out the prize of patient endurance. After that he had been seven times in bonds, had been driven into exile, had been stoned, had preached in the East and in the West, he won the noble renown which was the reward of his faith,

6 having taught righteousness unto the whole world and having reached the farthest bounds of the West; and when he had borne his testimony before the rulers, so he departed from the world and went unto the holy place, having been found a notable pattern of patient endurance.



1 Clem 47:1-4

1 Take up the epistle of the blessed Paul the Apostle.

2 What wrote he first unto you in the beginning of the Gospel?

3 Of a truth he charged you in the Spirit concerning himself and Cephas and Apollos, because that even then ye had made parties.

4 Yet that making of parties brought less sin upon you; for ye were partisans of Apostles that were highly reputed, and of a man approved in their sight.

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/t ... tfoot.html
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MrMacSon
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Re: Larry Hurtado vs Neil Godfrey

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Bernard Muller wrote: Thu Dec 07, 2017 9:43 pm
We know about Paul first from Marcion and probably Irenaeus Adv Haer 3, 1(?)
Let's not forget about the Epistula Apostolorum, dated 140-150.
:cheers: Interestingly, Charles Hill places "... the Epistula in Asia Minor.."

Hill, Charles E (1999) 'The Epistula Apostolorum: An Asian Tract from the Time of Polycarp', Journal of Early Christian Studies, Vol. 7: 1, pp. 1–53
Content
The text itself appears to be based on parts of the New Testament, in particular the Gospel of John, as well as the Apocalypse of Peter, Epistle of Barnabas, and Shepherd of Hermas, all of which were considered inspired by various groups or individuals during periods of the early church.

Countering Gnosticism
The whole text seems to have been intended as a refutation of the teachings of Cerinthus, although "Simon" (probably Simon Magus) is also mentioned. The content heavily criticises Gnosticism, although it does so not so much as a polemic against it, as an attempt to shore up the faith of non-Gnostics against conversion to Gnosticism.


Allusions to Paul
Since the text is ostensibly written in name of the apostles from the period immediately after Jesus' resurrection, it necessarily excludes Paul of Tarsus from the category "apostle". However, given the importance of Paul and his writings to the mainstream church, it is not surprising that the author of the text chose to put in a prediction of Paul's future coming. The description of the healing of Paul's blindness in Acts by Ananias is changed to healing by the hands of one of the apostles, so that Paul is thus subordinate to them.

Prophecies
The work quotes an ancient prophecy about a new Jerusalem arising from Syria and the old Jerusalem being captured and destroyed (as happened in 70). This latter prophecy is... unknown in any previous texts.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epistula_Apostolorum
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