Was Jesus a false prophet?

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
John2
Posts: 4309
Joined: Fri May 16, 2014 4:42 pm

Re: Was Jesus a false prophet?

Post by John2 »

These are just some timing notes from Mark for me to think about (and going by the Short Ending only).

Mk. 14:1:
Now the Passover and the Festival of Unleavened Bread were only two days away, and the chief priests and the teachers of the law were scheming to arrest Jesus secretly and kill him. “But not during the festival,” they said, “or the people may riot.”
14:12:
On the first day of the Festival of Unleavened Bread, when it was customary to sacrifice the Passover lamb, Jesus’ disciples asked him, “Where do you want us to go and make preparations for you to eat the Passover?”
14:17:
When evening came, Jesus arrived with the Twelve.
14:26:
When they had sung a hymn, they went out to the Mount of Olives.
14:30:
Truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “today—yes, tonight—before the rooster crows twice you yourself will disown me three times.”
14:32-37:
They went to a place called Gethsemane, and Jesus said to his disciples, “Sit here while I pray” ... Then he returned to his disciples and found them sleeping. “Simon,” he said to Peter, “are you asleep? Couldn’t you keep watch for one hour?
14:39-41:
Once more he went away and prayed the same thing. When he came back, he again found them sleeping, because their eyes were heavy. They did not know what to say to him. Returning the third time, he said to them, “Are you still sleeping and resting? Enough! The hour has come.
14:53:
They took Jesus to the high priest, and all the chief priests, the elders and the teachers of the law came together.
14:57-58:
Then some stood up and gave this false testimony against him: “We heard him say, ‘I will destroy this temple made with human hands and in three days will build another, not made with hands.’ ”
14:72:
Immediately the rooster crowed the second time. Then Peter remembered the word Jesus had spoken to him: “Before the rooster crows twice you will disown me three times.”
15:1:
Very early in the morning, the chief priests, with the elders, the teachers of the law and the whole Sanhedrin, made their plan.
15:6:
Now it was the custom at the festival to release a prisoner whom the people requested.
15:25:
It was nine in the morning when they crucified him.
15:33-34:
At noon, darkness came over the whole land until three in the afternoon. And at three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eloi, Eloi, lema sabachthani?” (which means “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”).
15:37:
With a loud cry, Jesus breathed his last.
15:42-43:
It was Preparation Day (that is, the day before the Sabbath). So as evening approached, Joseph of Arimathea ... asked for Jesus’ body.
16:1-2:
When the Sabbath was over, Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James, and Salome bought spices so that they might go to anoint Jesus’ body. Very early on the first day of the week, just after sunrise, they were on their way to the tomb.
16:4:
But when they looked up, they saw that the stone, which was very large, had been rolled away.
You know in spite of all you gained, you still have to stand out in the pouring rain.
John2
Posts: 4309
Joined: Fri May 16, 2014 4:42 pm

Re: Was Jesus a false prophet?

Post by John2 »

And Wikipedia says regarding the chronology (which is just something to chew on for now):
There is no consensus regarding the exact date of the crucifixion of Jesus, although it is generally agreed by biblical scholars that it was on a Friday on or near Passover (Nisan 15), during the governorship of Pontius Pilate (who ruled AD 26–36). Scholars have provided estimates for the year of crucifixion in the range 30–33 AD, with Rainer Riesner stating that "the fourteenth of Nisan (7 April) of the year A.D. 30 is, apparently in the opinion of the majority of contemporary scholars as well, far and away the most likely date of the crucifixion of Jesus." Another preferred date among scholars is Friday, April 3, 33 AD.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crucifixi ... Chronology
You know in spite of all you gained, you still have to stand out in the pouring rain.
iskander
Posts: 2091
Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2015 12:38 pm

Re: Was Jesus a false prophet?

Post by iskander »

The 3 days in question do not seem important. Jesus claimed to be a messenger --- not a fortune teller.
Ibn Ezra distinguishes between two kinds of prophets, those foretelling the future and those who are messengers conveying God’s commands (Gen 27:19). The latter are greater. They never err or deceive in prophecy, though they can err in other matters. Ibn Ezra notes, for example, how Moses was mistaken in deciding to take Zipporah with him to Egypt (Exod 4:20).[14]
Prophets who predict the future, however, are less great. Ibn Ezra willingly acknowledges that such prophets do not always speak truthfully and at times may even err in their predictions. Thus, he shows that Abraham, Jacob, David, and Elisha, among others, spoke deceivingly though they were prophets (Gen 27:19).[15]
What is Prophecy? - TheTorah.com
thetorah.com /what-is-prophecy/
What is Prophecy?
An Exploration of the Views of Sa’adia Gaon, Judah Halevi, Ibn Ezra, and Maimonides
Prof. Haim (Howard) Kreisel
iskander
Posts: 2091
Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2015 12:38 pm

Re: Was Jesus a false prophet?

Post by iskander »

iskander wrote: Tue Dec 12, 2017 10:44 am The 3 days in question do not seem important. Jesus claimed to be a messenger --- not a fortune teller.
Ibn Ezra distinguishes between two kinds of prophets, those foretelling the future and those who are messengers conveying God’s commands (Gen 27:19). The latter are greater. They never err or deceive in prophecy, though they can err in other matters. Ibn Ezra notes, for example, how Moses was mistaken in deciding to take Zipporah with him to Egypt (Exod 4:20).[14]
Prophets who predict the future, however, are less great. Ibn Ezra willingly acknowledges that such prophets do not always speak truthfully and at times may even err in their predictions. Thus, he shows that Abraham, Jacob, David, and Elisha, among others, spoke deceivingly though they were prophets (Gen 27:19).[15]
What is Prophecy? - TheTorah.com
An Exploration of the Views of Sa’adia Gaon, Judah Halevi, Ibn Ezra, and Maimonides
Prof. Haim (Howard) Kreisel
Was Jesus a false prophet?
Spinoza wrote the following:
I do not believe that anyone has reached such a degree of perfection above others except Christ, to whom the decrees of God which guide men to salvation were revealed not by words or visions but directly; and that is why God revealed himself to the Apostles through the mind of Christ, as he did, formerly, to Moses by means of a heavenly voice. Therefore the voice of Christ may be called the voice of God, like the voice which Moses heard.
On Prophecy [18]
CAMBRIDGE TEXTS IN THE HISTORY OF PHILOSOPHY, BENEDICT DE SPINOZA.Theological-Political Treatise
CAMBRIDGE TEXTS IN THE HISTORY OF PHILOSOPHY
Series editors. KARL AMERIKS and DESMOND M. CLARKE
Last edited by iskander on Tue Dec 12, 2017 3:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Charles Wilson
Posts: 2098
Joined: Thu Apr 03, 2014 8:13 am

Re: Was Jesus a false prophet?

Post by Charles Wilson »

Mark 14: 55 - 59 (RSV):

[55] Now the chief priests and the whole council sought testimony against Jesus to put him to death; but they found none.
[56] For many bore false witness against him, and their witness did not agree.
[57] And some stood up and bore false witness against him, saying,
[58] "We heard him say, `I will destroy this temple that is made with hands, and in three days I will build another, not made with hands.'"
[59] Yet not even so did their testimony agree.

Existence is not a predicate.

From the fact that the "Jesus Stories" were written from Sources, it does not follow that the Sources were written about "Jesus".

This is an important moment in the Transvaluation that is to follow. "...their witnesses did not agree...". We are told that the Testimonies did not agree and we are offered a Statement that Herod's Temple would be destroyed. What would not agree here?

The result of this is simply that the Story being stolen is not about a "Jesus" but a Priesthood that is striking back at the death of Herod. It is a Coup against the Herodians and the Romans. It is the death of 3000+ at Passover. The Story is rewritten for the Glory of Rome.

You can verify the Math as to who was on Mishmarot Duty at that Passover in 4 BCE. Bilgah, who is not worthy to loosen the Sandals of Immer will give way to Immer on the Sabbath in three days. The Physical Temple is not needed nor wanted. In three days the Temple would be destroyed and a New Temple would be built, without iron tools on stone, using materials not touched by human hands.

John 18: 14 (RSV):

[14] It was Ca'iaphas who had given counsel to the Jews that it was expedient that one man should die for the people.

A "Jesus" here would have been a False Prophet since the Temple was not destroyed at that time. The Fiction is therefore intended to tell another Story.

Luke 19: 39 - 40 (RSV):

[39] And some of the Pharisees in the multitude said to him, "Teacher, rebuke your disciples."
[40] He answered, "I tell you, if these were silent, the very stones would cry out."

Josephus, Antiquities..., 17, 9, 3 (in part):

"But those that were seditious on account of those teachers of the law, irritated the people by the noise and clamors they used to encourage the people in their designs; so they made an assault upon the soldiers, and came up to them, and stoned the greatest part of them, although some of them ran away wounded, and their captain among them; and when they had thus done, they returned to the sacrifices which were already in their hands..."
John2
Posts: 4309
Joined: Fri May 16, 2014 4:42 pm

Re: Was Jesus a false prophet?

Post by John2 »

iskander wrote:
Was Jesus a false prophet?
Spinoza wrote the following:

I do not believe that anyone has reached such a degree of perfection above others except Christ, to whom the decrees of God which guide men to salvation were revealed not by words or visions but directly; and that is why God revealed himself to the Apostles through the mind of Christ, as he did, formerly, to Moses by means of a heavenly voice. Therefore the voice of Christ may be called the voice of God, like the voice which Moses heard.
I guess God agrees with Shammai on the divorce issue then, though I suppose that's arguable anyway considering Eruvin 13b:
For three years Beit Shammai and Beit Hillel disagreed. These said: The halakha is in accordance with our opinion, and these said: The halakha is in accordance with our opinion. Ultimately, a Divine Voice emerged and proclaimed: Both these and those are the words of the living God. However, the halakha is in accordance with the opinion of Beit Hillel.


;)
You know in spite of all you gained, you still have to stand out in the pouring rain.
John2
Posts: 4309
Joined: Fri May 16, 2014 4:42 pm

Re: Was Jesus a false prophet?

Post by John2 »

iskander wrote:
The 3 days in question do not seem important. Jesus claimed to be a messenger --- not a fortune teller.


Ibn Ezra distinguishes between two kinds of prophets, those foretelling the future and those who are messengers conveying God’s commands (Gen 27:19). The latter are greater. They never err or deceive in prophecy, though they can err in other matters. Ibn Ezra notes, for example, how Moses was mistaken in deciding to take Zipporah with him to Egypt (Exod 4:20).[14]
Prophets who predict the future, however, are less great. Ibn Ezra willingly acknowledges that such prophets do not always speak truthfully and at times may even err in their predictions. Thus, he shows that Abraham, Jacob, David, and Elisha, among others, spoke deceivingly though they were prophets (Gen 27:19).[15]
What is Prophecy? - TheTorah.com
thetorah.com /what-is-prophecy/
What is Prophecy?
An Exploration of the Views of Sa’adia Gaon, Judah Halevi, Ibn Ezra, and Maimonides
Prof. Haim (Howard) Kreisel
That is very interesting. I will look into that. Thanks.
You know in spite of all you gained, you still have to stand out in the pouring rain.
iskander
Posts: 2091
Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2015 12:38 pm

Re: Was Jesus a false prophet?

Post by iskander »

John2 wrote: Wed Dec 13, 2017 10:04 am iskander wrote:
The 3 days in question do not seem important. Jesus claimed to be a messenger --- not a fortune teller.


Ibn Ezra distinguishes between two kinds of prophets, those foretelling the future and those who are messengers conveying God’s commands (Gen 27:19). The latter are greater. They never err or deceive in prophecy, though they can err in other matters. Ibn Ezra notes, for example, how Moses was mistaken in deciding to take Zipporah with him to Egypt (Exod 4:20).[14]
Prophets who predict the future, however, are less great. Ibn Ezra willingly acknowledges that such prophets do not always speak truthfully and at times may even err in their predictions. Thus, he shows that Abraham, Jacob, David, and Elisha, among others, spoke deceivingly though they were prophets (Gen 27:19).[15]
What is Prophecy? - TheTorah.com
thetorah.com /what-is-prophecy/
What is Prophecy?
An Exploration of the Views of Sa’adia Gaon, Judah Halevi, Ibn Ezra, and Maimonides
Prof. Haim (Howard) Kreisel
That is very interesting. I will look into that. Thanks.
I think that Baruch Spinoza likes to understand, first of all, what is it that any particular text is saying or trying to say. Jesus says in the text " my Father and I are one", and the reading of Spinoza is accurate
When I think about any historical event I try to take into account all we know about the time in which those struggles were lived.
Then , after I know what is the text saying, I decide. :)
John2
Posts: 4309
Joined: Fri May 16, 2014 4:42 pm

Re: Was Jesus a false prophet?

Post by John2 »

I've been mulling over the "three days" issue and it is way more complicated than I had expected. I think I'm going crazy. And I'm inclined to just throw up my hands and say that "after three days" and "on the third day" are interchangeable idioms, like Ben suggests, but I still want to try and sort everything out, if that's even possible.

There are various ideas and charts regarding the timeline and I am going by this one, which suggests the year 30 CE.

http://jesus-messiah.com/html/passover- ... -34ad.html

Some things need to be taken into consideration first. The OT/Jewish "day" begins at sunset, and Passover and the Feast of Unleavened Bread are two separate things, as noted here:
These two separate feasts have long been a source of confusion, and they have been blended into one festival.

In common speech the "Feast of Unleavened Bread" and the "Passover" were often used interchangeably. Luke clarifies this with, "Now the Feast of Unleavened Bread, which we call the Passover, was approaching." (Luke 22:1) Josephus uses similar words with, "the feast of unleavened bread, which was now at hand, and is by the Jews called the passover," (Wars II 1:3) and, "the feast of unleavened bread, which we call the passover." (Ant. XVIII 2:2) The whole Feast of Unleavened Bread was also known as the Passover. The Passover and following Feast of Unleavened Bread are often confused because of not recognizing this tradition of interchanging the names of the feasts.

http://www.nowoezone.com/NTC21.htm


As Josephus says in Ant. 2.15.1:
Whence it is that, in memory of the want we were then in, we keep a feast for eight days, which is called the feast of unleavened bread.
Technically speaking though, only the evening before the seven day Feast of Unleavened Bread is called Passover. As Lev. 23:5-6 says:
The Lord’s Passover begins at twilight on the fourteenth day of the first month. On the fifteenth day of that month the Lord’s Festival of Unleavened Bread begins; for seven days you must eat bread made without yeast.
Nehemia Gordon discusses this from a Karaite perspective here:

https://www.nehemiaswall.com/passover

But somewhere along the line the terms Passover and Feast of Unleavened Bread came to be used interchangeably. This is why Mark says in 14:1:
Now the Passover and the Festival of Unleavened Bread were only two days away, and the chief priests and the teachers of the law were scheming to arrest Jesus secretly and kill him.


But then in 14:12 he says;
On the first day of the Festival of Unleavened Bread, when it was customary to sacrifice the Passover lamb, Jesus’ disciples asked him, “Where do you want us to go and make preparations for you to eat the Passover?"


So Jesus had a Passover seder on Wednesday evening and then was arrested, tried, executed and died on Thursday (i.e., Wednesday night to 3 o'clock Thursday).

But apparently Jesus's body remained on the cross until sometime late Friday:
It was Preparation Day (that is, the day before the Sabbath). So as evening approached, Joseph of Arimathea, a prominent member of the Council, who was himself waiting for the kingdom of God, went boldly to Pilate and asked for Jesus’ body. Pilate was surprised to hear that he was already dead. Summoning the centurion, he asked him if Jesus had already died. When he learned from the centurion that it was so, he gave the body to Joseph. So Joseph bought some linen cloth, took down the body, wrapped it in the linen, and placed it in a tomb cut out of rock.
I didn't know that. That seems sad (even if it's only a literary invention). Why would Pilate be surprised on late Friday that Jesus was already dead if he was crucified on Thursday morning? It reminds of what Josephus says in Life 75:
And when I was sent by Titus Caesar with Cerealins, and a thousand horsemen, to a certain village called Thecoa, in order to know whether it were a place fit for a camp, as I came back, I saw many captives crucified, and remembered three of them as my former acquaintance. I was very sorry at this in my mind, and went with tears in my eyes to Titus, and told him of them; so he immediately commanded them to be taken down, and to have the greatest care taken of them, in order to their recovery; yet two of them died under the physician's hands, while the third recovered.
So Jesus' body was put in a tomb on late Friday before the Sabbath (which began at sunset Friday). And I have to leave it at that for now because my library time is up and I will lose all this if I don't post it now.
You know in spite of all you gained, you still have to stand out in the pouring rain.
User avatar
Ben C. Smith
Posts: 8994
Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2015 2:18 pm
Location: USA
Contact:

Re: Was Jesus a false prophet?

Post by Ben C. Smith »

John2 wrote: Wed Dec 13, 2017 11:54 amSo Jesus had a Passover seder on Wednesday evening and then was arrested, tried, executed and died on Thursday (i.e., Wednesday night to 3 o'clock Thursday).

But apparently Jesus's body remained on the cross until sometime late Friday....
This chronology does not come from Mark himself, does it? According to Mark, Jesus dies on the same day he is crucified, which is on a Friday:

Mark 15. 25, 33-37, 42: 25 It was the third hour when they crucified Him. .... 33 When the sixth hour came, darkness fell over the whole land until the ninth hour. 34 At the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, “Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?” which is translated, “My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?” 35 When some of the bystanders heard it, they began saying, “Behold, He is calling for Elijah.” 36 Someone ran and filled a sponge with sour wine, put it on a reed, and gave Him a drink, saying, “Let us see whether Elijah will come to take Him down.” 37 And Jesus uttered a loud cry, and breathed His last. .... 42 When evening had already come, because it was the Preparation Day, that is, the day before the Sabbath....

Thus Pilate marvels at his quick death because it took only about 6 hours (or perhaps a little longer before it was noticed).
ΤΙ ΕΣΤΙΝ ΑΛΗΘΕΙΑ
Post Reply