Was Jesus a false prophet?

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John2
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Re: Was Jesus a false prophet?

Post by John2 »

Let's take another look at Mark then. According to the 30 CE idea in the chart in the link above, Jesus had a Passover seder on Wednesday evening, the 14th of Nisan (when Passover begins, and bearing in mind the Passover/Feast of Unleavened Bread confusion I mentioned above).

Here is the Mark 14, 15 and 16 I am using:

http://biblehub.com/niv/mark/14.htm

http://biblehub.com/niv/mark/15.htm

http://biblehub.com/niv/mark/16.htm

14:12:
On the first day of the Festival of Unleavened Bread, when it was customary to sacrifice the Passover lamb, Jesus’ disciples asked him, “Where do you want us to go and make preparations for you to eat the Passover?”
14:17-18:
When evening came, Jesus arrived with the Twelve. While they were reclining at the table eating ...
And then he is arrested after sunset that Wednesday night or early Thursday morning before sunrise (i.e., the 15th of Nisan, the actual first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread).

14:26:
When they had sung a hymn [at the seder], they went out to the Mount of Olives.
14:30:
Truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “today—yes, tonight—before the rooster crows twice you yourself [Peter] will disown me three times.”
14:32:
They went to a place called Gethsemane ...
14:43:
Just as he was speaking, Judas, one of the Twelve, appeared. With him was a crowd armed with swords and clubs, sent from the chief priests, the teachers of the law, and the elders.
14:53:
They took Jesus to the high priest, and all the chief priests, the elders and the teachers of the law came together.
14:72:
Immediately the rooster crowed the second time. Then Peter remembered the word Jesus had spoken to him: “Before the rooster crows twice you will disown me three times.”
15:1:
Very early in the morning, the chief priests, with the elders, the teachers of the law and the whole Sanhedrin, made their plans. So they bound Jesus, led him away and handed him over to Pilate.
15:25:
It was nine in the morning when they crucified him.
15:33-34:
At noon, darkness came over the whole land until three in the afternoon. And at three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eloi, Eloi, lema sabachthani?” (which means “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”).
15:37:
With a loud cry, Jesus breathed his last.
15:42-46:
It was Preparation Day (that is, the day before the Sabbath). So as evening approached, Joseph of Arimathea ... took down the body ...
This Sabbath cannot be the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread because according to Mark's timeline Jesus was killed on the first day of the feast (i.e., Thursday), so this has to be Friday.

16:1-2:
When the Sabbath was over, Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James, and Salome bought spices so that they might go to anoint Jesus’ body. Very early on the first day of the week, just after sunrise, they were on their way to the tomb ...
And the first day of the week is Sunday.

So by this reckoning (if it is correct), then Jesus died on Thursday afternoon and was resurrected on or by early Sunday morning, and if part of a day counts as a whole day, then Jesus was dead for three days and was resurrected on the fourth day, i.e, "after three days," just like Jesus says over and over again in Mark.
Last edited by John2 on Wed Dec 13, 2017 2:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Ben C. Smith
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Re: Was Jesus a false prophet?

Post by Ben C. Smith »

John2 wrote: Wed Dec 13, 2017 2:07 pmSo by this reckoning (if it is correct), then Jesus died on Thursday afternoon and was resurrected on or by early Sunday morning, and if part of a day counts as a whole day, then Jesus was dead for three days and was resurrected on the fourth day, i.e, "after three days," just like Jesus says over and over again in Mark.
This is contradicted by Mark. You are adding in a day which Mark does not allow.
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John2
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Re: Was Jesus a false prophet?

Post by John2 »

You are adding in a day which Mark does not allow.
How so? (I wouldn't mind seeing your timeline of Mk. 14-16 for comparison.)

To me it appears to only be a matter of interpreting "it" in 15:42-46:
It was Preparation Day (that is, the day before the Sabbath). So as evening approached, Joseph of Arimathea ... took down the body ...
Is "it" necessarily the same day that Jesus died (Thursday by my reckoning), or does "it" refer to the day that Joseph took his body down (Friday)?
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Re: Was Jesus a false prophet?

Post by Ben C. Smith »

John2 wrote: Wed Dec 13, 2017 2:48 pm
You are adding in a day which Mark does not allow.
How so? (I wouldn't mind seeing your timeline of Mk. 14-16 for comparison.)

To me it appears to only be a matter of interpreting "it" in 15:42-46:
It was Preparation Day (that is, the day before the Sabbath). So as evening approached, Joseph of Arimathea ...took down the body ...
Is "it" necessarily the same day that Jesus was arrested, tried and died (Wednesday to Thursday), or does "it" refer to the day that Joseph took the body down (Friday)?
It has to mean the day when Joseph took down the body.

Here is the Marcan timeline:

Thursday

Mark 14.12-72: 12 And on the first day of Unleavened Bread, when the Passover lamb was being sacrificed, His disciples said to Him, "Where do You want us to go and prepare for You to eat the Passover?" 13 And He sent two of His disciples, and said to them, "Go into the city, and a man will meet you carrying a pitcher of water; follow him; 14 and wherever he enters, say to the owner of the house, 'The Teacher says, "Where is My guest room in which I may eat the Passover with My disciples?"' 15 "And he himself will show you a large upper room furnished and ready; and prepare for us there." 16 And the disciples went out, and came to the city, and found it just as He had told them; and they prepared the Passover. 17 And when it was evening He came with the twelve. 18 And as they were reclining at the table and eating, Jesus said, "Truly I say to you that one of you will betray Me, one who is eating with Me." 19 They began to be grieved and to say to Him one by one, "Surely not I?" 20 And He said to them, "It is one of the twelve, one who dips with Me in the bowl. 21 "For the Son of Man is to go, just as it is written of Him; but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been good for that man if he had not been born." 22 And while they were eating, He took some bread, and after a blessing He broke it; and gave it to them, and said, "Take it; this is My body." 23 And when He had taken a cup, and given thanks, He gave it to them; and they all drank from it. 24 And He said to them, "This is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many. 25 "Truly I say to you, I shall never again drink of the fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new in the kingdom of God." 26 And after singing a hymn, they went out to the Mount of Olives. 27 And Jesus said to them, "You will all fall away, because it is written, 'I will strike down the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered.' 28 "But after I have been raised, I will go before you to Galilee." 29 But Peter said to Him, "Even though all may fall away, yet I will not." 30 And Jesus said to him, "Truly I say to you, that you yourself this very night, before a cock crows twice, shall three times deny Me." 31 But Peter kept saying insistently, "Even if I have to die with You, I will not deny You!" And they all were saying the same thing, too. 32 And they came to a place named Gethsemane; and He said to His disciples, "Sit here until I have prayed." 33 And He took with Him Peter and James and John, and began to be very distressed and troubled. 34 And He said to them, "My soul is deeply grieved to the point of death; remain here and keep watch." 35 And He went a little beyond them, and fell to the ground, and began to pray that if it were possible, the hour might pass Him by. 36 And He was saying, "Abba! Father! All things are possible for Thee; remove this cup from Me; yet not what I will, but what Thou wilt." 37 And He came and found them sleeping, and said to Peter, "Simon, are you asleep? Could you not keep watch for one hour? 38 "Keep watching and praying, that you may not come into temptation; the spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak." 39 And again He went away and prayed, saying the same words. 40 And again He came and found them sleeping, for their eyes were very heavy; and they did not know what to answer Him. 41 And He came the third time, and said to them, "Are you still sleeping and taking your rest? It is enough; the hour has come; behold, the Son of Man is being betrayed into the hands of sinners. 42 "Arise, let us be going; behold, the one who betrays Me is at hand!" 43 And immediately while He was still speaking, Judas, one of the twelve, came up, accompanied by a multitude with swords and clubs, from the chief priests and the scribes and the elders. 44 Now he who was betraying Him had given them a signal, saying, "Whomever I shall kiss, He is the one; seize Him, and lead Him away under guard." 45 And after coming, he immediately went to Him, saying, "Rabbi!" and kissed Him. 46 And they laid hands on Him, and seized Him. 47 But a certain one of those who stood by drew his sword, and struck the slave of the high priest, and cut off his ear. 48 And Jesus answered and said to them, "Have you come out with swords and clubs to arrest Me, as against a robber? 49 "Every day I was with you in the temple teaching, and you did not seize Me; but this has happened that the Scriptures might be fulfilled." 50 And they all left Him and fled. 51 And a certain young man was following Him, wearing nothing but a linen sheet over his naked body; and they seized him. 52 But he left the linen sheet behind, and escaped naked. 53 And they led Jesus away to the high priest; and all the chief priests and the elders and the scribes gathered together. 54 And Peter had followed Him at a distance, right into the courtyard of the high priest; and he was sitting with the officers, and warming himself at the fire. 55 Now the chief priests and the whole Council kept trying to obtain testimony against Jesus to put Him to death; and they were not finding any. 56 For many were giving false testimony against Him, and yet their testimony was not consistent. 57 And some stood up and began to give false testimony against Him, saying, 58 "We heard Him say, 'I will destroy this temple made with hands, and in three days I will build another made without hands.'" 59 And not even in this respect was their testimony consistent. 60 And the high priest stood up and came forward and questioned Jesus, saying, "Do You make no answer? What is it that these men are testifying against You?" 61 But He kept silent, and made no answer. Again the high priest was questioning Him, and saying to Him, "Are You the Christ, the Son of the Blessed One?" 62 And Jesus said, "I am; and you shall see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Power, and coming with the clouds of heaven." 63 And tearing his clothes, the high priest said, "What further need do we have of witnesses? 64 "You have heard the blasphemy; how does it seem to you?" And they all condemned Him to be deserving of death. 65 And some began to spit at Him, and to blindfold Him, and to beat Him with their fists, and to say to Him, "Prophesy!" And the officers received Him with slaps in the face. 66 And as Peter was below in the courtyard, one of the servant-girls of the high priest came, 67 and seeing Peter warming himself, she looked at him, and said, "You, too, were with Jesus the Nazarene." 68 But he denied it, saying, "I neither know nor understand what you are talking about." And he went out onto the porch. 69 And the maid saw him, and began once more to say to the bystanders, "This is one of them!" 70 But again he was denying it. And after a little while the bystanders were again saying to Peter, "Surely you are one of them, for you are a Galilean too." 71 But he began to curse and swear, "I do not know this man you are talking about!" 72 And immediately a cock crowed a second time. And Peter remembered how Jesus had made the remark to him, "Before a cock crows twice, you will deny Me three times." And he began to weep.

Friday (Preparation Day)

Mark 15.1-47: 1 And early in the morning the chief priests with the elders and scribes, and the whole Council, immediately held a consultation; and binding Jesus, they led Him away, and delivered Him up to Pilate. 2 And Pilate questioned Him, "Are You the King of the Jews?" And answering He said to him, "It is as you say." 3 And the chief priests began to accuse Him harshly. 4 And Pilate was questioning Him again, saying, "Do You make no answer? See how many charges they bring against You!" 5 But Jesus made no further answer; so that Pilate was amazed. 6 Now at the feast he used to release for them any one prisoner whom they requested. 7 And the man named Barabbas had been imprisoned with the insurrectionists who had committed murder in the insurrection. 8 And the multitude went up and began asking him to do as he had been accustomed to do for them. 9 And Pilate answered them, saying, "Do you want me to release for you the King of the Jews?" 10 For he was aware that the chief priests had delivered Him up because of envy. 11 But the chief priests stirred up the multitude to ask him to release Barabbas for them instead. 12 And answering again, Pilate was saying to them, "Then what shall I do with Him whom you call the King of the Jews?" 13 And they shouted back, "Crucify Him!" 14 But Pilate was saying to them, "Why, what evil has He done?" But they shouted all the more, "Crucify Him!" 15 And wishing to satisfy the multitude, Pilate released Barabbas for them, and after having Jesus scourged, he delivered Him to be crucified. 16 And the soldiers took Him away into the palace (that is, the Praetorium), and they called together the whole Roman cohort. 17 And they dressed Him up in purple, and after weaving a crown of thorns, they put it on Him; 18 and they began to acclaim Him, "Hail, King of the Jews!" 19 And they kept beating His head with a reed, and spitting at Him, and kneeling and bowing before Him. 20 And after they had mocked Him, they took the purple off Him, and put His garments on Him. And they led Him out to crucify Him. 21 And they pressed into service a passer-by coming from the country, Simon of Cyrene (the father of Alexander and Rufus), to bear His cross. 22 And they brought Him to the place Golgotha, which is translated, Place of a Skull. 23 And they tried to give Him wine mixed with myrrh; but He did not take it. 24 And they crucified Him, and divided up His garments among themselves, casting lots for them, to decide what each should take. 25 And it was the third hour when they crucified Him. 26 And the inscription of the charge against Him read, "The King of the Jews." 27 And they crucified two robbers with Him, one on His right and one on His left. 28 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "And He was numbered with transgressors." 29 And those passing by were hurling abuse at Him, wagging their heads, and saying, "Ha! You who are going to destroy the temple and rebuild it in three days, 30 save Yourself, and come down from the cross!" 31 In the same way the chief priests also, along with the scribes, were mocking Him among themselves and saying, "He saved others; He cannot save Himself. 32 "Let this Christ, the King of Israel, now come down from the cross, so that we may see and believe!" And those who were crucified with Him were casting the same insult at Him. 33 And when the sixth hour had come, darkness fell over the whole land until the ninth hour. 34 And at the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?" which is translated, "My God, My God, why hast Thou forsaken Me?" 35 And when some of the bystanders heard it, they began saying, "Behold, He is calling for Elijah." 36 And someone ran and filled a sponge with sour wine, put it on a reed, and gave Him a drink, saying, "Let us see whether Elijah will come to take Him down." 37 And Jesus uttered a loud cry, and breathed His last. 38 And the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. 39 And when the centurion, who was standing right in front of Him, saw the way He breathed His last, he said, "Truly this man was the Son of God!" 40 And there were also some women looking on from a distance, among whom were Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James the Less and Joses, and Salome. 41 And when He was in Galilee, they used to follow Him and minister to Him; and there were many other women who had come up with Him to Jerusalem. 42 And when evening had already come, because it was the preparation day, that is, the day before the Sabbath, 43 Joseph of Arimathea came, a prominent member of the Council, who himself was waiting for the kingdom of God; and he gathered up courage and went in before Pilate, and asked for the body of Jesus. 44 And Pilate wondered if He was dead by this time, and summoning the centurion, he questioned him as to whether He was already dead. 45 And ascertaining this from the centurion, he granted the body to Joseph. 46 And Joseph bought a linen cloth, took Him down, wrapped Him in the linen cloth, and laid Him in a tomb which had been hewn out in the rock; and he rolled a stone against the entrance of the tomb. 47 And Mary Magdalene and Mary the mother of Joses were looking on to see where He was laid.

Saturday (Sabbath Day)

[Not narrated.]

Sunday (First Day of the Week)

Mark 16.1-8: 1 And when the Sabbath was over, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, bought spices, that they might come and anoint Him. 2 And very early on the first day of the week, they came to the tomb when the sun had risen. 3 And they were saying to one another, "Who will roll away the stone for us from the entrance of the tomb?" 4 And looking up, they saw that the stone had been rolled away, although it was extremely large. 5 And entering the tomb, they saw a young man sitting at the right, wearing a white robe; and they were amazed. 6 And he said to them, "Do not be amazed; you are looking for Jesus the Nazarene, who has been crucified. He has risen; He is not here; behold, here is the place where they laid Him. 7 "But go, tell His disciples and Peter, 'He is going before you into Galilee; there you will see Him, just as He said to you.'" 8 And they went out and fled from the tomb, for trembling and astonishment had gripped them; and they said nothing to anyone, for they were afraid.

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Re: Was Jesus a false prophet?

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John2 wrote: Wed Dec 13, 2017 2:48 pm
You are adding in a day which Mark does not allow.
How so?
You keep starting on Wednesday for some reason, but where are you slipping in the extra day?
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Re: Was Jesus a false prophet?

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Ben C. Smith wrote: Wed Dec 13, 2017 3:01 pm
John2 wrote: Wed Dec 13, 2017 2:48 pm
You are adding in a day which Mark does not allow.
How so?
You keep starting on Wednesday for some reason, but where are you slipping in the extra day?
And, even if you have some reason for starting on Wednesday, it is undeniable that Jesus dies on the same day he is crucified. In Mark 15, Pilate hands him over to be crucified, and he is crucified at the third hour. Between the sixth hour and the ninth there is darkness, and around the ninth hour Jesus dies. Then Mark tells us that it is Preparation Day (hence the need to get Jesus off the cross). The women are watching when Jesus dies, and they are still watching when Joseph buries him.
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Re: Was Jesus a false prophet?

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It's in Mk. 14:12:
And on the first day of Unleavened Bread, when the Passover lamb was being sacrificed, His disciples said to Him, "Where do You want us to go and prepare for You to eat the Passover?
This is what I mean by the confusion of Passover (which is the evening before the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread) and the seven day Feast. If the first day of the Feast begins Thursday (i.e., after sunset on Wednesday), then the Passover (i.e., "when the Passover lamb was being sacrificed"), and thus Jesus' seder, was on Wednesday, before the sunset. Now I know I'm right, because I see now that you are confused too (as was Mark, and Josephus, at least in the sense that they think of Passover and the Feast as being one thing instead of two things. This is why Josephus calls it eight days in Ant. 2.15.1:
Whence it is that, in memory of the want we were then in, we keep a feast for eight days, which is called the feast of unleavened bread.


As the website I cited above puts it:
These two separate feasts [Passover and the Feast of Unleavened Bread] have long been a source of confusion, and they have been blended into one festival.

In common speech the "Feast of Unleavened Bread" and the "Passover" were often used interchangeably. Luke clarifies this with, "Now the Feast of Unleavened Bread, which we call the Passover, was approaching." (Luke 22:1) Josephus uses similar words with, "the feast of unleavened bread, which was now at hand, and is by the Jews called the passover," (Wars II 1:3) and, "the feast of unleavened bread, which we call the passover." (Ant. XVIII 2:2) The whole Feast of Unleavened Bread was also known as the Passover. The Passover and following Feast of Unleavened Bread are often confused because of not recognizing this tradition of interchanging the names of the feasts.
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Re: Was Jesus a false prophet?

Post by hakeem »

The Jewish day begins in the evening of the previous day and ends the following day at sunset.

See Genesis in the Hebrew Bible.

Genesis 1:5........ the evening and the morning were the first day.

Genesis 1:8..... the evening and the morning were the second day.


Genesis 1:13.....the evening and the morning were the third day.


Genesis 1:19...... the evening and the morning were the fourth day.


Genesis 1:23...... the evening and the morning were the fifth day.


Genesis 1:31...... the evening and the morning were the sixth day.



The Sabbath day begins Friday EVENING and ends on Saturday at sunset.

In the short gMark Jesus fable chapter 15, , the Jesus character was brought before Pilate at 9 AM, was crucified at Noon, died on Friday afternoon at 3:00 PM [the day before the Sabbath].

The short gMark Ch 16 does not really show that the Jesus character resurrected after three days or on the third day.

In gMark's story, when the women went to the tomb on Sunday morning his dead body was missing and someone in white clothes claimed he was risen but did not say when the event happened.



Mark 16
1.And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint him.

2 And very early in the morning the first day of the week, they came unto the sepulchre at the rising of the sun.

3 And they said among themselves, Who shall roll us away the stone from the door of the sepulchre?

4 And when they looked, they saw that the stone was rolled away: for it was very great.

5 And entering into the sepulchre, they saw a young man sitting on the right side, clothed in a long white garment; and they were affrighted.

6 And he saith unto them, Be not affrighted: Ye seek Jesus of Nazareth, which was crucified: he is risen; he is not here: behold the place where they laid him.

7 But go your way, tell his disciples and Peter that he goeth before you into Galilee: there shall ye see him, as he said unto you.

8 And they went out quickly, and fled from the sepulchre; for they trembled and were amazed: neither said they any thing to any man; for they were afraid.
Based on the short gMark fable, the Jesus character could have risen from the dead anytime between the time he was buried to the time when the woman arrived at the burial site.
Last edited by hakeem on Wed Dec 13, 2017 3:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Was Jesus a false prophet?

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John2 wrote: Wed Dec 13, 2017 3:17 pm It's in Mk. 14:12:
And on the first day of Unleavened Bread, when the Passover lamb was being sacrificed, His disciples said to Him, "Where do You want us to go and prepare for You to eat the Passover?
This is what I mean by the confusion of Passover (which is the evening before the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread) and the seven day Feast. If the first day of the Feast begins Thursday (i.e., after sunset on Wednesday), then the Passover (i.e., "when the Passover lamb was being sacrificed"), and thus Jesus' seder, was on Wednesday, before the sunset. Now I know I'm right, because I see now that you are confused too (as was Mark, and Josephus, at least in the sense that they think of Passover and the Feast as being one thing instead of two things. This is why Josephus calls it eight days in Ant. 2.15.1:
Whence it is that, in memory of the want we were then in, we keep a feast for eight days, which is called the feast of unleavened bread.
I know about the eight days. But Mark is confused/confusing here.

But none of this changes that, in Mark, Jesus dies on Friday (Preparation).
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Re: Was Jesus a false prophet?

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Then Mark tells us that it is Preparation Day (hence the need to get Jesus off the cross). The women are watching when Jesus dies, and they are still watching when Joseph buries him.
But Mark says that Jesus was handed over to Pilate and crucified early morning on Thursday (15:1, 25) and died that afternoon, after the seder on Wednesday evening.

And why couldn't the women have watched for more than a few hours? After all, 15:41 says that "In Galilee these women had followed him and cared for his needs," so they were very devoted to him.
Last edited by John2 on Wed Dec 13, 2017 3:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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