Was Jesus a false prophet?

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
John2
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Re: Was Jesus a false prophet?

Post by John2 »

Ben,

I feel good enough about this interpretation now to bet you five dollars it's right, and I'll even send you my address so you can mail it to me. :)
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Ben C. Smith
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Re: Was Jesus a false prophet?

Post by Ben C. Smith »

John2 wrote: Wed Dec 13, 2017 3:44 pm
Then Mark tells us that it is Preparation Day (hence the need to get Jesus off the cross). The women are watching when Jesus dies, and they are still watching when Joseph buries him.
But Mark says that Jesus was handed over to Pilate and crucified early morning on Thursday (15:1, 25), after the seder on Wednesday evening.
That is impossible in Mark 15. The hours are counted out, and then verse 42 affirms that it is Preparation/Friday. The "evening" here is the same day already underway, exactly as elsewhere in Mark:

Mark 4.35: 35 And on that day, when evening had come, He said to them, "Let us go over to the other side."

IOW, when Mark says that evening has arrived, it does not mean that the day has changed over.
Last edited by Ben C. Smith on Wed Dec 13, 2017 4:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Ben C. Smith
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Re: Was Jesus a false prophet?

Post by Ben C. Smith »

John2 wrote: Wed Dec 13, 2017 3:51 pm Ben,

I feel good enough about this interpretation now to bet you five dollars it's right, and I'll even send you my address so you can mail it to me. :)
Ha. :D

Just FYI, I am in consonance with the standard scholarly view on this issue. Here are four recent commentaries:

Robert H. Stein: For fitting a resurrection “after three days” into a late Friday afternoon death and an early Sunday morning resurrection, see 8:31–32a.

Mary Ann Beavis: Mark’s narrative of the Passion and its aftermath takes place over the course of five days: The first is a Wednesday, two days before Passover, when Jesus is anointed at Bethany (14:1–11). The second is Thursday, the day of preparation for the Passover (14:12). This leads to the third day, beginning on Passover evening, when Jesus and his disciples share the Passover meal, and that night he is arrested and tried by the Sanhedrin (14:12–72). The third day, Friday, continues as the first day of the festival, when Jesus is tried by Pilate, crucified, and buried (15:1–47). On the Sabbath (Saturday) all work ceases and Jesus lies dead in his tomb (16:1a). On the first day of the Jewish week (Sunday), three women arrive to find the tomb empty (16:1–8).

James Edwards: Mark dates the crucifixion on the day before Sabbath (i.e., Friday, 15:42), and the Last Supper on the night before (i.e., Thursday).

John Painter: Mark announces the arrival of evening on the preparation of the sabbath. The reader knows that Jesus has been dead since 3 p.m. .... Joseph was concerned that Jesus should be buried before evening, hence the haste.

I have been over the chronology many, many times, and it just makes no sense to place the Last Supper on Wednesday evening/night.
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John2
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Re: Was Jesus a false prophet?

Post by John2 »

Alright, I need to think about all this some more. I'm going crazy again.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-MtW7hbzWk
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Charles Wilson
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Re: Was Jesus a false prophet?

Post by Charles Wilson »

See what happens when you assume that existence is a predicate? :problem:
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Jax
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Re: Was Jesus a false prophet?

Post by Jax »

I'm a little confused myself.

If Passover is usually in mid April and the new day starts at sunset and sunset at that time of the year is usually around 8:00 pm then the third hour would be around 11:00 pm, the sixth around 2:00 am, and the ninth around 5:00 am right?

How could there have been darkness from the sixth to the ninth hour when actually the whole time would have been dark?
Charles Wilson
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Re: Was Jesus a false prophet?

Post by Charles Wilson »

John 19: 31 (RSV):

[31] Since it was the day of Preparation, in order to prevent the bodies from remaining on the cross on the sabbath (for that sabbath was a high day), the Jews asked Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.

Mark 14: 12 (RSV):

[12] And on the first day of Unleavened Bread, when they sacrificed the passover lamb, his disciples said to him, "Where will you have us go and prepare for you to eat the passover?"

There were 2 "Crucifixions". You are on the right track, John2. John is "correcting" Mark again. There was a crucifixion that occurred 12 years later (in 9 CE) after the Symbolic Crucifixion of Immer at the Passover of 4 BCE.

The Friday Crucifixion Motif is Transvaluation. You are even told that in John: "...for that sabbath was a high day...". Are there Sabbaths other than "Friday sunset to Saturday sunset"?

Trust yourself here, John2. You may not like what you find but it is there. Keep exploring.
John2
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Re: Was Jesus a false prophet?

Post by John2 »

Charles,

Thanks for the encouragement, but I think I'm going to drop the "three days" thing for now (at least as far as it being a tangent on this thread). I don't need it. I don't care if it is based on Daniel or not, it just seems (seemed?) to make sense given the "son of man" context. But feel free (anyone) to carry on about it here if you like.
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Ben C. Smith
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Re: Was Jesus a false prophet?

Post by Ben C. Smith »

Jax wrote: Wed Dec 13, 2017 6:38 pm I'm a little confused myself.

If Passover is usually in mid April and the new day starts at sunset and sunset at that time of the year is usually around 8:00 pm then the third hour would be around 11:00 pm, the sixth around 2:00 am, and the ninth around 5:00 am right?

How could there have been darkness from the sixth to the ninth hour when actually the whole time would have been dark?
The daily Jewish hours began at sunrise for daytime (estimated to be around 6 am, at least for part of the year). For example, tractate Eduyoth in the Mishnah speaks of the continual/perpetual morning sacrifice being offered as late as the fourth hour (which would be around 10 am).

The NT books follow this reckoning, at least for the most part:

John 11.9a: 9a Jesus answered, "Are there not twelve hours in the day?"

Acts 2.15: 15 "For these men are not drunk, as you suppose, for it is only the third hour of the day [~9 am]."

Acts 10.9: 9 On the next day, as they were on their way and approaching the city, Peter went up on the housetop about the sixth hour [~12 noon] to pray.

It comes from what appears to be an apologetic website, but this chart may help: http://www.biblecharts.org/newtestaamen ... ishday.pdf. It looks basically correct to me, based on what I have gleaned over the years (with the caveat that all times are approximate and shifted with the seasons).
Last edited by Ben C. Smith on Wed Dec 13, 2017 7:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Jax
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Re: Was Jesus a false prophet?

Post by Jax »

^ OK. Cool. :thumbup:
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