Thoughts on Maurice Casey's new book

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
Robert Tulip
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Re: Thoughts on Maurice Casey's new book

Post by Robert Tulip »

Adam's quote from Jim West illustrates everything that is wrong with theology as an intellectual discipline. Jim West's demonising comments are nothing but empty rhetoric, a clanging gong, full of sound and fury but signifying nothing. If Saint Paul believed in Jesus of Nazareth he would have said so, instead of leaving the exclusively spiritual Christ of the Epistles. The historical fiction of Jesus Christ is a fleshing out of an originally cosmic spiritual myth.

The reality of the Christ problem is that the actual evidence points to literary invention, not historical existence, as the basis of the Jesus stories. The cosmology of the ancient oral mystery cultures that gave birth to Christianity is so distant from modern worldviews that people today are largely unable to imagine how the authors of the New Testament may have thought. So instead Christians get away with believing the ancient writers accepted the absurd literal supernatural magical claims about God, fanciful miracle stories that only became believable by the application of massive political intimidation over many centuries.

Compared to literalism, the far more compelling reading is that the Gospels are allegory, but their real meaning was suppressed by fanatics. Literalism is about emotional comfort, not historical analysis.

Dogmatists such as Casey must find coherent analysis emotionally upsetting. Otherwise they would not resort to such desperately thin and personal arguments. Jim West compounds the problem, providing evangelism on steroids with his empty derogatory comments about mythicism. Casey and West are an embarrassment to Christian theology, using bullying instead of dialogue, and blank dogmatic assertion in place of analysis of evidence.
Adam wrote:Though Casey's book isn't even "out" yet, Jim West presumes already to declare it the "last word" (my bolding) on debunking MJ. (The formatting was very hard to copy over, sorry for not getting it exactly the same as West's formatting.)
http://www.scribd.com/doc/189205535/Casey
The new volume is comprised of these segments: Preface Abbreviations 1. Introduction 2. Historical Method 3. The Date and Reliability of the Canonical Gospels
4. What is Not in the Gospels, or Not in ‘Q’
5. What is Not in the Epistles, Especially Those of Paul 6. What is Written in the Epistles, Especially Those of Paul 7. It All Happened Before, in Egypt, India, or Wherever you Fancy, but there was Nowhere for it to Happen in Israel 8. Conclusions Appendix: Latinisms
The volume is dedicated to the very lovely Stephanie Fisher who contributed to its appearance in numerous ways.

But is it any good? Does it serve a useful purpose? Or does it simply give 'airtime’ to a fringe element of pseudo-‘scholars' who scarcely deserve the recognition they herein receive? In my estimation the answer to the first question is a resounding yes. Casey has an engaging writing style as all who have familiarized themselves with his earlier works will know. He also can turn a phrase. For instance: Blogger Godfrey uses the work of Kelber in an incompetent piece of creative fiction (p. 78). Again … Doherty has taken over Kloppenborg's version of these entirely hypothetical documents [i.e., ‘Q’], so he has drawn dramatic conclusions from the absence of things from documents which did not exist until modern scholars invented them (p. 109). This book is a rip-roaring and irrefutable denunciation of post-modernity’s silliest assertion: that Jesus did not exist and was a myth invented by the church. This brings me to the second question: does this book serve a useful purpose? Again, the answer is yes. It is exceptionally important that scholars not be silent when falsehoods are foisted upon an unsuspecting and uninformed public. Put simply, silence is acceptance. Hence, when Casey speaks out so forthrightly about the folly and foolishness of the mythicists assertions he is doing what scholars must do: teaching.

Finally, does Casey's book simply give airtime to a fringe element of pseudo-scholars who scarcely deserve the recognition they herein receive? This time the answer is an even more resounding No! This book once and for all settles the question of Jesus existence. The pseudo-scholarship of the mythicists is so roundly and soundly defeated precisely because Casey addresses their ideas point by point and line by line and measure by measure. Casey concludes The most important result of this book is that the whole idea that Jesus of Nazareth did not exist as a historical figure is verifiably false. Moreover, it has not been produced by anyone or anything with any reasonable relationship to critical scholarship. It belongs in the fantasy lives of people who used to be Fundamentalist Christians. They did not believe in critical scholarship then, and they do not do so now. I cannot find any evidence that any of them have adequate professional qualifications (p. 243). This volume needs to be read by every person interested in the Historical Jesus.

It is one of those unusual volumes of which it can be honestly said, this is the last word necessary on the subject. Case closed.
Casey has closed the case as no one else could, or has. Jim West Quartz Hill School of Theology
Diogenes the Cynic
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Re: Thoughts on Maurice Casey's new book

Post by Diogenes the Cynic »

ficino wrote:Such scholars might argue so:

Resonances with the LXX are a problem only under question-begging assumptions.
No they are demonstrable. Read Randel Helms' Gospel Fictions to see how the Greek matches up.
Mark is older than the Mishnah, Talmud, etc., so we cannot use those as evidence for custom or law in first-century Palestine.Therefore we cannot say that Mark errs in these respects.
This is just desperate handwaving. If you want to argue that the Sanhedrin use to have trials at night on the Passover or that claiming to be the Messiah was blasphemy, then you have some work to do.
Mark's supposed geographical errors amount to simplifications (region instead of town name, etc.) except perhaps the Bethany-Bethphage switch in order. There are various explanations for that; it doesn't prove that Mark isn't using eyewitness accounts.
You are obviously unfamiliar with the geographical errors if you think the Bethpage and Bethany is the most significant error. Mark has pigs jumping into a lake from 60 miles away (and the lame "region of" apologetic is just ad hoc contrivance which distorts the definition of a Greek word beyond all reason). He has Jesus walking to the Deacapolis by way of Tyre and Sidon, which is like some kind of Pacman wraparound trip. He has the disciples making a trip across the lake and then says they landed at a town which is on the exact same side of the lake they started from only a short walk away. Mark doesn't know what he's talking about. He botches Aramaic transliteration to the point where he's at times incoherent (the fuck is "Boanarges?" The fuck is "Iscariot" or "Arimathea?").

Moreover, Mark does not even CLAIM to be citing any witnesses. He does not say who his sources are and never says he talked to any disciples or even received any oral tradition from anyone. Anyone wanting to assert that Mark does have any eyewitness sourcing in it is the one with burden of proof. No one actually has to prove the contrary since there is no reason to hypothesize it in the first place.
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Diogenes the Cynic
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Re: Thoughts on Maurice Casey's new book

Post by Diogenes the Cynic »

Adam wrote:Sorry, Dio,
I usually find you perceptive, but what is the relevance for historicity that the final redaction introduces elements you find questionable? Simply compare Mark with Luke for what was really in the sources, and your objectionable features disappear. Your "reliably assumed" is a fair put-down, but no one (not even me) assumes eyewitness material. The current status is instead that it is blithely assumed that there is not eyewitness material.
This is NOT the assumption made in critical scholarship. The assumption, for most of them, is that the Gospels probably DO contain, at least in the sayings traditions and possibly some narrative outlines (e.g. baptism by John, Temple incident, crucifixion) some material that goes back, at least telephonically to some kind of authentic witnesses or events. The assumption is not that nothing can come from a witness, but that even if some material does go back to witnesses, we can't tell which material it is. Therefore, as a matter of methodology we can't assume that any material is authentic without independent corroboration.
ficino
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Re: Thoughts on Maurice Casey's new book

Post by ficino »

Diogenes the Cynic wrote:
You are obviously unfamiliar with the geographical errors if you think the Bethpage and Bethany is the most significant error. Mark has pigs jumping into a lake from 60 miles away (and the lame "region of" apologetic is just ad hoc contrivance which distorts the definition of a Greek word beyond all reason). He has Jesus walking to the Deacapolis by way of Tyre and Sidon, which is like some kind of Pacman wraparound trip. He has the disciples making a trip across the lake and then says they landed at a town which is on the exact same side of the lake they started from only a short walk away. Mark doesn't know what he's talking about. He botches Aramaic transcription to the point where he's at times incoherent (the fuck is "Boanarges?" The fuck is "Iscariot" or "Arimathea?").

Moreover, Mark does not even CLAIM to be citing any witnesses. He does not say who his sources are and never says he talked to any disciples or even received any oral tradition from anyone. Anyone wanting to assert that Mark does have any eyewitness sourcing in it is the one with burden of proof. No one actually has to prove the contrary since there is no reason to hypothesize it in the first place.
Glad to learn about some more geographical errors in Mark, Diogenes.

Documents about scripture from the Catholic Church's magisterium have spoken of the four gospels as though all four are somehow based on eyewitness reports. I'm glad my job doesn't rest on reconciling such claims with the Church's generally favorable view of historical-critical methods.
Kunigunde Kreuzerin
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Re: Thoughts on Maurice Casey's new book

Post by Kunigunde Kreuzerin »

Mk 10:1 "cometh into the coasts of Judaea by the farther side of Jordan"
Mk 7:31 "he came unto the sea of Galilee, through the midst of the coasts of Decapolis"

it´s only Mark´s parallel world - there is no error :mrgreen:
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Tenorikuma
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Re: Thoughts on Maurice Casey's new book

Post by Tenorikuma »

Diogenes the Cynic wrote:He has Jesus walking to the Deacapolis by way of Tyre and Sidon, which is like some kind of Pacman wraparound trip.
It's worse than that. Jesus goes from Tyre to Galilee (SE of Tyre) by way of Sidon (north of Tyre) and the Decapolis (further SE than Galilee). It's a geographically impossible journey, without backtracking and going through Tyre and Galilee twice.

By the way, I'm pretty sure Ficino was giving examples of the arguments other scholars might make, not making those claims himself.
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DCHindley
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Re: Thoughts on Maurice Casey's new book

Post by DCHindley »

Diogenes the Cynic wrote:
ficino wrote:
Mark's supposed geographical errors amount to simplifications (region instead of town name, etc.) except perhaps the Bethany-Bethphage switch in order. There are various explanations for that; it doesn't prove that Mark isn't using eyewitness accounts.
You are obviously unfamiliar with the geographical errors if you think the Bethpage and Bethany is the most significant error. Mark has pigs jumping into a lake from 60 miles away (and the lame "region of" apologetic is just ad hoc contrivance which distorts the definition of a Greek word beyond all reason). He has Jesus walking to the Deacapolis by way of Tyre and Sidon, which is like some kind of Pacman wraparound trip. He has the disciples making a trip across the lake and then says they landed at a town which is on the exact same side of the lake they started from only a short walk away.
I posted this on Synoptic-l 12/10/2000:
Looking at Hammond's _Atlas of the Bible Lands_ (1977), maps B-5 and B-26, there is a minor road heading east (actually E.S.E.) from the major coastal road between Sarepta and Sidon. It intersects a minor north-south road that runs along the border with Philip's domain in the region Paneas. Going south along the river valley it passes through Cadasa and is met by the major road from Damascus. After passing through Chorazin it ends at Capernaum.

The alternate major route from Tyre would have taken him south through Ecdippa to Ptolemais, where he would then have turned S.S.E. along a major route through Asochis, Sepphoris to Tiberias (or take a minor route bypassing Asochis and Sepphoris).

I think it is important to note that of these two alternate routes, the northern "indirect" route passes through or by many towns mentioned in the Gospels: Tyre, Sarepta, Sidon, Caesarea Philippi, Chorazin and Capernaum (with Bethsaida 3-4 miles away along the trail around the Sea of Galilee). The southern route from Tyre passes by (but not through) far fewer: Cana and Nazareth (each between 3-5 miles off the main road).
It's like driving through Los Angeles, CA, USA. You could choose one or more of the crazy network of freeways they have (I lived there for a year, and have been back for work several times), but for practical reasons (mainly traffic congestion before 10:00 am or after 3:00 pm) you end up taking the back streets.

DCH (union mandated break before hitting the road on business)
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Blood
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Re: Thoughts on Maurice Casey's new book

Post by Blood »

Neil Godfrey had a post in 2010 suggesting that perhaps we need to rethink Mark's errors of geography.

Mark: failed geography, but great bible student
R. Steven Notley in an article in the Journal of Biblical Literature (128, no. 1, 2009: 183-188), [says] that the author of this gospel was simply following a passage in the Book of Isaiah that early Christians interpreted as a prophecy of where the Messiah was to appear and perform his saving works.
It could be that they are not simply errors, per se, but allusions to geography in the LXX.
“The only sensible response to fragmented, slowly but randomly accruing evidence is radical open-mindedness. A single, simple explanation for a historical event is generally a failure of imagination, not a triumph of induction.” William H.C. Propp
beowulf
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Re: Thoughts on Maurice Casey's new book

Post by beowulf »

ficino wrote:Such scholars might argue so:

Resonances with the LXX are a problem only under question-begging assumptions. Mark is older than the Mishnah, Talmud, etc., so we cannot use those as evidence for custom or law in first-century Palestine. Therefore we cannot say that Mark errs in these respects. Mark's supposed geographical errors amount to simplifications (region instead of town name, etc.) except perhaps the Bethany-Bethphage switch in order. There are various explanations for that; it doesn't prove that Mark isn't using eyewitness accounts.

There are geographical errors in Mark that were never corrected by the Christian Church.
Someone failed to report accurately the itinerary of Jesus, but the importance of this uncorrected mistake is that it remained uncorrected.
This uncorrected mistake is a magnificent show of respect for the written text of the gospel.

The Catholic Study Bible, Second Edition, Reading Guide page 387, says

“The evangelist knitted together sayings of Jesus and stories about his ministry into a single dynamic narrative.”


Publisher: Oxford University Press, USA; 2 edition (September 15, 2011)
Language: English
ISBN-10: 0195297768
ISBN-13: 978-0195297768
Diogenes the Cynic
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Re: Thoughts on Maurice Casey's new book

Post by Diogenes the Cynic »

DCHindley wrote:I posted this on Synoptic-l 12/10/2000:
Looking at Hammond's _Atlas of the Bible Lands_ (1977), maps B-5 and B-26, there is a minor road heading east (actually E.S.E.) from the major coastal road between Sarepta and Sidon. It intersects a minor north-south road that runs along the border with Philip's domain in the region Paneas. Going south along the river valley it passes through Cadasa and is met by the major road from Damascus. After passing through Chorazin it ends at Capernaum.

The alternate major route from Tyre would have taken him south through Ecdippa to Ptolemais, where he would then have turned S.S.E. along a major route through Asochis, Sepphoris to Tiberias (or take a minor route bypassing Asochis and Sepphoris).

I think it is important to note that of these two alternate routes, the northern "indirect" route passes through or by many towns mentioned in the Gospels: Tyre, Sarepta, Sidon, Caesarea Philippi, Chorazin and Capernaum (with Bethsaida 3-4 miles away along the trail around the Sea of Galilee). The southern route from Tyre passes by (but not through) far fewer: Cana and Nazareth (each between 3-5 miles off the main road).
It's like driving through Los Angeles, CA, USA. You could choose one or more of the crazy network of freeways they have (I lived there for a year, and have been back for work several times), but for practical reasons (mainly traffic congestion before 10:00 am or after 3:00 pm) you end up taking the back streets.

DCH (union mandated break before hitting the road on business)
Capernaum and Cana are still on the wrong side of the lake from the Decapolis. Nazareth is like 15 miles west of the lake.
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