Where in Antiquities Do We Suppose "These things happened to the Jews to avenge James the Just ..." Appeared?

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Re: Where in Antiquities Do We Suppose "These things happened to the Jews to avenge James the Just ..." Appeared?

Post by Ben C. Smith »

Secret Alias wrote: Sat Nov 18, 2017 9:18 am I am very interested in why both Origen and Eusebius think Josephus had the words "These things happened to the Jews to avenge James the Just, who was a brother of Jesus, that is called the Christ. For the Jews slew him, although he was a most just man." What is the best explanation for these words? As far as I can see, these are the possibilities:

1. the words were in a copy of Josephus used by both Origen and Eusebius
2. both Origen and Eusebius mistakenly attribute words written by Hegesippus or some other writer for Josephus
3. Eusebius added the words to a copy of Josephus which wasn't copied or widely circulated
4. some other explanation I haven't thought of in the five seconds it took to type up this OP

Thoughts?
5. Origen mistakenly attributed a summary (not in exact words; he does not even claim to be quoting directly) to Josephus which was in Hegesippus instead (though he was aided in this mistake by certain things which Josephus did write). Eusebius then, on Origen's authority alone, attributed this summary to Josephus as if it were a direct quote.
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Re: Where in Antiquities Do We Suppose "These things happened to the Jews to avenge James the Just ..." Appeared?

Post by John2 »

Ben wrote:
5. Origen mistakenly attributed a summary (not in exact words; he does not even claim to be quoting directly) to Josephus which was in Hegesippus instead (though he was aided in this mistake by certain things which Josephus did write).
My problem with that idea is that Hegesippus doesn't explicitly say that Jerusalem fell because of the death of James (though I suppose it may be implied), only that it happened sometime afterwards.

As Barrett puts it regarding "immediately" (eutheos), "Hegesippus may have used [eutheos] in the same loose way as Mark: 'and the next thing, that is, the next significant thing, was that Vespasian besieged them.' "

https://books.google.com/books?id=1MTWt ... tt&f=false

And Josephus already said that Jerusalem fell because of the death of Ananus (and in a passage that more closely resembles what Origen is saying), so it seems unlikely to me that he would have said this about James too.
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Re: Where in Antiquities Do We Suppose "These things happened to the Jews to avenge James the Just ..." Appeared?

Post by Ben C. Smith »

John2 wrote: Sat Nov 18, 2017 6:40 pm Ben wrote:
5. Origen mistakenly attributed a summary (not in exact words; he does not even claim to be quoting directly) to Josephus which was in Hegesippus instead (though he was aided in this mistake by certain things which Josephus did write).
My problem with that idea is that Hegesippus doesn't explicitly say that Jerusalem fell because of the death of James (though I suppose it may be implied), only that it happened sometime afterwards.

As Barrett puts it regarding "immediately" (eutheos), "Hegesippus may have used [eutheos] in the same loose way as Mark: 'and the next thing, that is, the next significant thing, was that Vespasian besieged them.' "

https://books.google.com/books?id=1MTWt ... tt&f=false

And Josephus already said that Jerusalem fell because of the death of Ananus (and in a passage that more closely resembles what Origen is saying), so it seems unlikely to me that he would have said this about James too.
I can do no better here than to point to Ken Olson on this very topic. I think he gets it right: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1540&start=50#p35384.
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Re: Where in Antiquities Do We Suppose "These things happened to the Jews to avenge James the Just ..." Appeared?

Post by Ben C. Smith »

Besides, even if Hegesippus himself did not mean to imply that the siege happened because James was murdered, what is there to prevent Origen from inferring that from the way Hegesippus worded it? Modern readers infer it often enough. And the fallacy which would be involved with that inference (if indeed it is fallacious) is so common that it has its own Latin name: Post hoc ergo propter hoc.
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Re: Where in Antiquities Do We Suppose "These things happened to the Jews to avenge James the Just ..." Appeared?

Post by John2 »

I agree with what Ken says in the link here:
I take Hegesippus to be saying that Vespasian’s siege of the city was not “inevitable” as you put it, nor was it a “development of the war”. It was the result (“fruit”) of the Jerusalemites’ killing of James. Prior to that event, the righteous one’s intercessory prayer in the sanctuary, kneeling and asking for forgiveness for the people, had held back God’s judgment on Jerusalem. By killing James, the Jews and Scribes and Pharisees removed “the rampart of the people” that was protecting them. I think that is by far the most plausible way to understand the explicit fulfillment citation of LXX Isaiah 3.10, “Let us take the just man for he is unprofitable to us. Yet they shall eat the fruit of their works.” What do you take “the fruit of their works” to be?
The problem I have with Origen making this inference though is that, as far as I am aware, he does not mention or cite Hegesippus in any of his writings and thus does not appear to know him.
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Re: Where in Antiquities Do We Suppose "These things happened to the Jews to avenge James the Just ..." Appeared?

Post by Ben C. Smith »

John2 wrote: Sat Nov 18, 2017 7:15 pm I agree with what Ken says in the link here:
I take Hegesippus to be saying that Vespasian’s siege of the city was not “inevitable” as you put it, nor was it a “development of the war”. It was the result (“fruit”) of the Jerusalemites’ killing of James. Prior to that event, the righteous one’s intercessory prayer in the sanctuary, kneeling and asking for forgiveness for the people, had held back God’s judgment on Jerusalem. By killing James, the Jews and Scribes and Pharisees removed “the rampart of the people” that was protecting them. I think that is by far the most plausible way to understand the explicit fulfillment citation of LXX Isaiah 3.10, “Let us take the just man for he is unprofitable to us. Yet they shall eat the fruit of their works.” What do you take “the fruit of their works” to be?
The problem I have with Origen making this inference though is that, as far as I am aware, he does not mention or cite Hegesippus in any of his writings and thus does not appear to know him.
Why is it easier for you believe that (A) a Christian interpolation made it into Josephus before Origen and Eusebius, both fathers quoted it, and yet it did not survive than that (B) Origen had access to Hegesippus?

Another question for you. Eusebius normally at least tells us which work he is quoting from; why does he not do so in this case?
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Re: Where in Antiquities Do We Suppose "These things happened to the Jews to avenge James the Just ..." Appeared?

Post by John2 »

Ben wrote:
Why is it easier for you believe that (A) a Christian interpolation made it into Josephus before Origen and Eusebius, both fathers quoted it, and yet it did not survive than that (B) Origen had access to Hegesippus?

Another question for you. Eusebius normally at least tells us which work he is quoting from; why does he not do so in this case?
I don't understand (A). What interpolation are you referring to?

Regarding (B), I can believe that Origen could have had access to Hegesippus, but as far as I can tell he doesn't mention or cite him anywhere in his writings so why assume that he knows him in this case?

I don't understand the last question either. Sorry.
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Re: Where in Antiquities Do We Suppose "These things happened to the Jews to avenge James the Just ..." Appeared?

Post by Bernard Muller »

According to 'Commentary on Matthew' (X, 17), Origen's wrote:
"he [Josephus] had a mind to set down what was the cause why the people suffered such miseries, till the very holy house is demolished, he said, that these things befell them by the anger of God, on account to of what they had dared to do to James, the brother of Jesus ..."
Confirmation that Origen found the passage in Josephus' works.

Note: I found Ben already quoted the passage.

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Re: Where in Antiquities Do We Suppose "These things happened to the Jews to avenge James the Just ..." Appeared?

Post by Ben C. Smith »

John2 wrote: Sat Nov 18, 2017 8:00 pm Ben wrote:
Why is it easier for you believe that (A) a Christian interpolation made it into Josephus before Origen and Eusebius, both fathers quoted it, and yet it did not survive than that (B) Origen had access to Hegesippus?

Another question for you. Eusebius normally at least tells us which work he is quoting from; why does he not do so in this case?
I don't understand (A). What interpolation are you referring to?
I understood you to be saying that whatever Origen and Eusebius were quoting was an interpolation into the text of Josephus, since you agreed with Stephan's first option:
1. the words were in a copy of Josephus used by both Origen and Eusebius.
And you also said that Josephus himself could not have written it:
And Josephus already said that Jerusalem fell because of the death of Ananus (and in a passage that more closely resembles what Origen is saying), so it seems unlikely to me that he would have said this about James too.
So, if the passage was found (by Origen and Eusebius) in a copy of Josephus, and Josephus himself did not write it, then that passage is an interpolation, right? By definition? Or am I missing something?
Regarding (B), I can believe that Origen could have had access to Hegesippus, but as far as I can tell he doesn't mention or cite him anywhere in his writings so why assume that he knows him in this case?
Because not to assume that Origen knows Hegesippus (or somebody who knew Hegesippus; remember, we do not necessarily have to suppose that Origen himself accessed the Hegesippan text) means having to make an even greater assumption: namely, that there was at least one copy of Josephus circulating with the interpolation described above (about James' murder being the cause for the siege), and that both Origen and Eusebius quoted from that copy, and then that copy got lost before anybody rectified the lack of the paragraph in question in other copies of Josephus.

IOW, I definitely regard the assumption that there was a lost, otherwise unknown recension of Josephus as a bigger assumption than that Origen had access to Hegesippus. This seems obvious to me. Do you reverse the gravity of those assumptions? If so, why?
I don't understand the last question either. Sorry.
Here is Eusebius quoting verbatim (or very nearly so) from Josephus in the History of the Church:

1.5.4-6: 4 The above-mentioned author, in the eighteenth book of his Antiquities, in agreement with these words, adds the following, which we quote exactly: "Cyrenius, a member of the senate, one who had held other offices and had passed through them all to the consulship, a man also of great dignity in other respects, came to Syria with a small retinue, being sent by Caear to be a judge of the nation and to make an assessment of their property." 5 And after a little he says: "But Judas, a Gaulonite, from a city called Gamala, taking with him Sadduchus, a Pharisee, urged the people to revolt, both of them saying that the taxation meant nothing else than downright slavery, and exhorting the nation to defend their liberty." 6 And in the second book of his History of the Jewish War, he writes as follows concerning the same man: "At this time a certain Galilean, whose name was Judas, persuaded his countrymen to revolt, declaring that they were cowards if they submitted to pay tribute to the Romans, and if they endured, besides God, masters who were mortal." These things are recorded by Josephus.

1.8.4-5: 4 It is not possible to relate here how he tarnished the supposed felicity of his reign by successive calamities in his family, by the murder of wife and children, and others of his nearest relatives and dearest friends. The account, which casts every other tragic drama into the shade, is detailed at length in the histories of Josephus. 5 How, immediately after his crime against our Savior and the other infants, the punishment sent by God drove him on to his death, we can best learn from the words of that historian who, in the seventeenth book of his Antiquities of the Jews, writes as follows concerning his end: [Here follows a long quotation.]

1.8.9: 9 The writer mentioned above recounts these things in the work referred to. And in the second book of his History he gives a similar account of the same Herod, which runs as follows: "The disease then seized upon his whole body and distracted it by various torments. For he had a slow fever, and the itching of the skin of his whole body was insupportable. He suffered also from continuous pains in his colon, and there were swellings on his feet like those of a person suffering from dropsy, while his abdomen was inflamed and his privy member so putrefied as to produce worms. Besides this he could breathe only in an upright posture, and then only with difficulty, and he had convulsions in all his limbs, so that the diviners said that his diseases were a punishment." .... [This quotation continues at some length.]

1.8.14: 14 And after a little [this comes after the previous quote, so belongs to book 2 of the History] Josephus says, "And again he was so tortured by want of food and by a convulsive cough that, overcome by his pains, he planned to anticipate his fate. Taking an apple he asked also for a knife, for he was accustomed to cut apples and eat them. Then looking round to see that there was no one to hinder, he raised his right hand as if to stab himself."

1.10.4a: 4a Josephus relates that there were four high priests in succession from Annas to Caiaphas. Thus in the same book of the Antiquities [this follows after a summary from book 18 of the Antiquities] he writes as follows: "Valerius Gratus having put an end to the priesthood of Ananus appoints Ishmael, the son of Fabi, high priest. And having removed him after a little he appoints Eleazer, the son of Ananus the high priest, to the same office. And having removed him also at the end of a year he gives the high priesthood to Simon, the son of Camithus. But he likewise held the honor no more than a year, when Josephus, called also Caiaphas, succeeded him."

1.11.4: 4 He relates these things in the eighteenth book of the Antiquities, where he writes of John in the following words: "It seemed to some of the Jews that the army of Herod was destroyed by God, who most justly avenged John called the Baptist." [This quotation continues for a while.]

2.5.2: 2 Josephus also makes mention of these things in the eighteenth book of his Antiquities, in the following words: "A sedition having arisen in Alexandria between the Jews that dwell there and the Greeks, three deputies were chosen from each faction and went to Caius."

2.6.4: Hear what he says in the second book of his Jewish War, where he writes as follows: "Pilate being sent to Judea as procurator by Tiberius, secretly carried veiled images of the emperor, called ensigns, to Jerusalem by night. The following day this caused the greatest disturbance among the Jews. For those who were near were confounded at the sight, beholding their laws, as it were, trampled under foot. For they allow no image to be set up in their city."

2.10.2-3: 2 We must admire the account of Josephus for its agreement with the divine Scriptures in regard to this wonderful event; for he clearly bears witness to the truth in the nineteenth book of his Antiquities, where he relates the wonder in the following words: 3 "He had completed the third year of his reign over all Judea when he came to Caesarea, which was formerly called Strato's Tower. There he held games in honor of Caesar, learning that this was a festival observed in behalf of Caesar's safety. At this festival was collected a great multitude of the highest and most honorable men in the province." [This quotation continues.]

2.11.1b-2.12.1: 11.1b Let us therefore add the account of Josephus concerning this man. He records in the work mentioned just above, the following circumstances: 2 "While Fadus was procurator of Judea a certain impostor called Theudas persuaded a very great multitude to take their possessions and follow him to the river Jordan. For he said that he was a prophet, and that the river should be divided at his command, and afford them an easy passage. 3 And with these words he deceived many. But Fadus did not permit them to enjoy their folly, but sent a troop of horsemen against them, who fell upon them unexpectedly and slew many of them and took many others alive, while they took Theudas himself captive, and cut off his head and carried it to Jerusalem." Besides this he also makes mention of the famine [this quotation comes from the same book of the Antiquities as the one about Theudas], which took place in the reign of Claudius, in the following words: 12.1 "And at this time it came to pass that the great famine took place in Judea, in which the queen Helen, having purchased grain from Egypt with large sums, distributed it to the needy."

2.20.1-2: 1 Josephus again, in the twentieth book of his Antiquities, relates the quarrel which arose among the priests during the reign of Nero, while Felix was procurator of Judea. 2 His words are as follows: "There arose a quarrel between the high priests on the one hand and the priests and leaders of the people of Jerusalem on the other. And each of them collected a body of the boldest and most restless men, and put himself at their head, and whenever they met they hurled invectives and stones at each other. And there was no one that would interpose; but these things were done at will as if in a city destitute of a ruler." [This quotation continues.]

2.23.21: 21 And the same writer records his death also in the twentieth book of his Antiquities in the following words: "But the emperor, when he learned of the death of Festus, sent Albinus to be procurator of Judea. But the younger Ananus, who, as we have already said, had obtained the high priesthood, was of an exceedingly bold and reckless disposition. He belonged, moreover, to the sect of the Sadducees, who are the most cruel of all the Jews in the execution of judgment, as we have already shown." [This quotation continues.]

3.6.1: Taking the fifth book of the History of Josephus again in our hands, let us go through the tragedy of events which then occurred. [Here follows some brief quotations and paraphrases from the Wars, which Eusebius calls the History (of the War).]

3.6.13: To this account Josephus, after relating other things, adds the following [still in the above mentioned book 5]: "The possibility of going out of the city being brought to an end, all hope of safety for the Jews was cut off. And the famine increased and devoured the people by houses and families. And the rooms were filled with dead women and children, the lanes of the city with the corpses of old men."

3.6.19: 19 After speaking of some other things, Josephus proceeds as follows [still in book 5]: "I cannot hesitate to declare what my feelings compel me to. I suppose, if the Romans had longer delayed in coming against these guilty wretches, the city would have been swallowed up by a chasm, or overwhelmed with a flood, or struck with such thunderbolts as destroyed Sodom. For it had brought forth a generation of men much more godless than were those that suffered such punishment. By their madness indeed was the whole people brought to destruction."

3.6.20: 20 And in the sixth book he writes as follows: "Of those that perished by famine in the city the number was countless, and the miseries they underwent unspeakable. For if so much as the shadow of food appeared in any house, there was war, and the dearest friends engaged in hand-to-hand conflict with one another, and snatched from each other the most wretched supports of life." [This quotation continues.]

3.9.1: 1 After all this it is fitting that we should know something in regard to the origin and family of Josephus, who has contributed so much to the history in hand. He himself gives us information on this point [still in the Wars, though now back in book 1, as implied by Eusebius' wording here and choice of quotation] in the following words: "Josephus, the son of Mattathias, a priest of Jerusalem, who himself fought against the Romans in the beginning and was compelled to be present at what happened afterward."

3.10.7-11: 7 And at the end of the twentieth book of his Antiquities Josephus himself intimates that he had purposed to write a work in four books concerning God and his existence, according to the traditional opinions of the Jews, and also concerning the laws, why it is that they permit some things while prohibiting others. And the same writer also mentions in his own works other books written by himself. 8 In addition to these things it is proper to quote also the words that are found at the close of his Antiquities, in confirmation of the testimony which we have drawn from his accounts. In that place he attacks Justus of Tiberias, who, like himself, had attempted to write a history of contemporary events, on the ground that he had not written truthfully. Having brought many other accusations against the man, he continues in these words: 9 "I indeed was not afraid in respect to my writings as you were, but, on the contrary, I presented my books to the emperors themselves when the events were almost under men's eyes. For I was conscious that I had preserved the truth in my account, and hence was not disappointed in my expectation of obtaining their attestation. 10 And I presented my history also to many others, some of whom were present at the war, as, for instance, King Agrippa and some of his relatives. 11 For the Emperor Titus desired so much that the knowledge of the events should be communicated to men by my history alone, that he endorsed the books with his own hand and commanded that they should be published. And King Agrippa wrote sixty-two epistles testifying to the truthfulness of my account." Of these epistles Josephus subjoins two. But this will suffice in regard to him. Let us now proceed with our history.

I have included only direct quotations here, not obvious paraphrases or summaries. I cannot guarantee I have caught them all, but the list above is quite long, is it not? And do you notice that we always know where we are in the books of Josephus? Eusebius habitually tells us which work he is quoting from, and usually even which book of that work. If he does not, it is because it is from the same work as his previous quotation. But now, what about the passage in question?

2.23.20: 20 Of course Josephus did not shrink from giving written testimony to this as follows: "And these things happened to the Jews to avenge James the Just, who was the brother of Jesus the so-called Christ, for the Jews killed him in spite of his great righteousness."

If Eusebius is quoting from one of the extant works of Josephus here, why does he not tell us, as is his custom, which book of which work he is quoting from in this case? That is what I was asking. Sorry for not being clearer the first time.

ETA: The context before our mysterious quotation in 2.23.20 is the long quotation of Hegesippus and reference to Clement of Alexandria. Before that, there are quotations from the Pauline epistles. Before that, finally, we get a paraphrase (not even a quotation) from book 2 of the Wars by Josephus. I point this out only to anticipate the possible response that Eusebius does not name a work or book here because he found the quotation in the same work or book as previously mentioned. But elsewhere when he assumes the same book or work he has been quoting from Josephus all along, not skipping around to other authors like Paul and Hegesippus.
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Re: Where in Antiquities Do We Suppose "These things happened to the Jews to avenge James the Just ..." Appeared?

Post by John2 »

The Bernard dog wrote:
Confirmation that Origen found the passage in Josephus' works.
But I don't think Josephus would have said this about Ananus (as he does in War 4.5.2) and James. And since Origen doesn't appear to me to know Hegesippus, or say exactly where he found the passage in Josephus, I think he misheard or misunderstood the Ananus account. Otherwise, in this scenario, we would have to assume that Josephus said Jerusalem fell because of the deaths of Ananus on one hand and James on the other, which seems especially implausible considering that Ananus was the one who had James killed.
Last edited by John2 on Sat Nov 18, 2017 9:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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