Is Jesus the descendant of David in Mark?

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Bernard Muller
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Re: Is Jesus the descendant of David in Mark?

Post by Bernard Muller »

David himself calls him Lord; so how is he his son?" And the great throng heard him gladly.
I remember reading that in the Jewish way of thinking, the son is always subordinate (inferior) to his father. So if David calls Christ "Lord" (that is somebody superior to David), then Christ cannot be David's son.

Cordially, Bernard
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iskander
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Re: Is Jesus the descendant of David in Mark?

Post by iskander »

How can the messiah be the servant of king David? .Ridiculous, plain daft. Mark 12 :35-37 constitutes a rejection of any restoration of the Davidic state.

36 Jesus answered, ‘My kingdom is not from this world. If my kingdom were from this world, my followers would be fighting to keep me from being handed over to the Jews. But as it is, my kingdom is not from here. --John 18
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Re: Is Jesus the descendant of David in Mark?

Post by Giuseppe »

Mark 11.1-11: 1 As they approach Jerusalem, at Bethphage and Bethany, near the Mount of Olives, He sends two of His disciples, 2 and says to them, "Go into the village opposite you, and immediately as you enter it, you will find a colt tied there, on which no one yet has ever sat; untie it and bring it here. 3 If anyone says to you, 'Why are you doing this?' you say, 'The Lord has need of it'; and immediately he will send it back here." 4 They went away and found a colt tied at the door, outside in the street; and they untie it. 5 Some of the bystanders were saying to them, "What are you doing, untying the colt?" 6 They spoke to them just as Jesus had told them, and they gave them permission. 7 They bring the colt to Jesus and put their coats on it; and He sat on it. 8 And many spread their coats in the road, and others spread leafy branches which they had cut from the fields. 9 Those who went in front and those who followed were shouting: "Hosanna! Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord. 10 Blessed is the coming kingdom of our father David. Hosanna in the highest!" 11 Jesus entered Jerusalem and came into the temple; and after looking around at everything, He left for Bethany with the twelve, since it was already late.
There are no doubts that for Mark the sin of the people is not to hail Jesus as the davidic Christ (since he is really davidic) but to consider him as only an earthly Christ.

Note that Jesus is "called King of Jews" by the people (Pilate's own words) even when the people has to prefer Barabbas. The people killed just who they called (davidic) "Christ".
This fact raises doubt about the true identity of Jesus in the Earliest Gospel: usually, in a Gospel, what the people think is always false.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
Giuseppe
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Re: Is Jesus the descendant of David in Mark?

Post by Giuseppe »

Obviously my view is already known in this forum: in the Earliest Gospel the sin of the People is to call Jesus as "the Christ", the "King of Jews" when really Jesus is not the Christ and not the King of Jews. Since he doesn't serve the Creator God.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
lsayre
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Re: Is Jesus the descendant of David in Mark?

Post by lsayre »

Giuseppe wrote: Mon Nov 13, 2017 6:28 am Obviously my view is already known in this forum: in the Earliest Gospel the sin of the People is to call Jesus as "the Christ", the "King of Jews" when really Jesus is not the Christ and not the King of Jews. Since he doesn't serve the Creator God.
Is there someone other than Jesus who properly bares the titles "the Christ", the "King of Jews" if Jesus is not the one, and if so who is the one associated with these titles?
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Re: Is Jesus the descendant of David in Mark?

Post by Kunigunde Kreuzerin »

Ben C. Smith wrote: Sat Nov 11, 2017 7:42 amBut what about Mark? No genealogy is given, and the only statements related to Davidic descent in the gospel can be taken in more than one way.
MrMacSon wrote: Sat Nov 11, 2017 1:01 pm
Ben C. Smith wrote: Sat Nov 11, 2017 7:42 amMark 12.35-37 is sometimes pressed as evidence that Mark does not think of Jesus as the physical descendant of David:
I find passages like that hard to fathom or tease out. It's seems as if Jesus is portrayed as separate to 'the Christ'.

Then, with 36, 'David himself said in the Holy Spirit' - is that referring to David being enveloped in the Holy Spirit ie. being the Holy Spirit? Or being under an umbrella of the Holy Spirit?

Then there are two Lords. And then reference to David being a Lord's son, but uncertainty about in what sense.

It seems very nebulous, and open to various interpretations.
I agree that these questions are part of the problem. But I think the greater problem is to understand Mark's logic of a possible view of Jesus as a kind of son of David. What could it mean to say that Mark's Jesus is a „spiritual descendant of David“ or that David was his „spiritual ancestor“? Is this more than a phrase? (I'm only asking.)

I think one can understand how in Mark's view „John“ is „Elijah“. We know on the one hand it isn't meant literally, but on the other hand it is meant in full sense, what is (for us) hard to grasp. But is John a „spiritual Elijah“? Whatever, there are enough hints in GMark to recognize John as Elijah, at least as a special kind of Elijah. Mark's logic of this identification may be subtly, but I think it is there and we can understand it, even if we would disagree with his logic. I think if Mark's Jesus is a special kind of David's son then Mark has narrated – at least very subtly - the logic of his view.

I have always understand the confession of Bartimaeus as a conclusion. Jesus is called „Son of David“ because he is the „Nazarene“ what may be the next puzzling thing.
Mark 10:46 And having heard that Jesus the Nazarene is he began to cry out and to say: Son of David, Jesus, have mercy on me.

As said before, I think that in GMark is an Elijanic secret and that Jesus is the „false Elijah“. One could surmise that the „false Son of David“ is Barrabas, the son of „our father David“ (Mark 11:10). Therefore the crowds choosed Barrabas.

That's all speculations.

Ben C. Smith wrote: Sun Nov 12, 2017 1:39 pmI always love it when you draw out these kinds of connections across the entire gospel.
:mrgreen: But I assume that the questions about Elijah and about the son of David are related together and that Mark has highlighted that.
Mark 9:11 And they asked him, “Why do the scribes say that first Elijah must come?” Mark 12:35 And as Jesus taught in the temple, he said, “How can the scribes say that the Christ is the son of David?

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Ben C. Smith
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Re: Is Jesus the descendant of David in Mark?

Post by Ben C. Smith »

Kunigunde Kreuzerin wrote: Mon Nov 13, 2017 3:03 pmAs said before, I think that in GMark is an Elijanic secret and that Jesus is the „false Elijah“. One could surmise that the „false Son of David“ is Barrabas, the son of „our father David“ (Mark 11:10). Therefore the crowds choosed Barrabas.
This is one of the more intriguing suggestions for the name of Barabbas, I would suggest. As you imply, I am not sure how one would move it out of the realm of speculation, but still... nice one.
But I assume that the questions about Elijah and about the son of David are related together and that Mark has highlighted that.
Mark 9:11 And they asked him, “Why do the scribes say that first Elijah must come?” Mark 12:35 And as Jesus taught in the temple, he said, “How can the scribes say that the Christ is the son of David?

Well, fair is fair, since the scribes had previously asked questions about and of Jesus, too:

Mark 2.6-7: 6 But there were some of the scribes sitting there and reasoning in their hearts, 7 "Why does this man speak that way? He is blaspheming; who can forgive sins but God alone?"

Mark 2.16: 16 And when the scribes of the Pharisees saw that He was eating with the sinners and tax-gatherers, they began saying to His disciples, "Why is He eating and drinking with tax-gatherers and sinners?"

Mark 7.5: 5 And the Pharisees and the scribes asked Him, "Why do Your disciples not walk according to the tradition of the elders, but eat their bread with impure hands?"

Mark 11.27-28: 27 And they came again to Jerusalem. And as He was walking in the temple, the chief priests, and scribes, and elders came to Him, 28 and began saying to Him, "By what authority are You doing these things, or who gave You this authority to do these things?"

Mark 12.28: 28 And one of the scribes came and heard them arguing, and recognizing that He had answered them well, asked Him, "What commandment is the foremost of all?"

Not to mention an open, direct accusation:

Mark 3.22: 22 And the scribes who came down from Jerusalem were saying, "He is possessed by Beelzebul," and, "He casts out the demons by the ruler of the demons."

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Re: Is Jesus the descendant of David in Mark?

Post by Bernard Muller »

Mk 12:37 "David himself calls him Lord; so how is he his son?" And the great throng heard him gladly."
"Mark" had the crowd knowing the answer to the question. That means that "Mark" knew how the question would be answered by his audience. I don't think he was expecting the audience's thinking would be so subtle that they would consider Christ as a spiritual descendant of David. Rather, the clear-cut answer "Christ cannot be a descendant of David" in the most likely what "Mark" had in mind and what his audience would comprehend.

Anyway, this is how "Barnabas" interpreted the same passage in the epistle:
Barnabas 12:10
Behold again it is Jesus, not a son of man, but the Son of God, and
He was revealed in the flesh in a figure. Since then men will say
that Christ is the son of David
, David himself prophesieth being
afraid and understanding the error of sinners;
The Lord said unto
my Lord, Sit thou on My right hand until I set thine enemies for a
footstool under Thy feet.

Barnabas 12:11
And again thus sayith Isaiah; The Lord said unto my Christ the
Lord, of whose right hand I laid hold, that the nations should give
ear before Him, and I will break down the strength of kings. See
how David calleth Him Lord, and calleth Him not son
[of David].

I also notice (from https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/le ... 4159&t=RSV) that the "how" in Mk 12:37 can be translated by: of cause: how is that?, how can that be?
In that case, Mk 12:37a could be translated by: "David himself calls him Lord; so how is that he is his son?"
OR
"David himself calls him Lord; so how can that be his son?"

Cordially, Bernard
Last edited by Bernard Muller on Wed Nov 15, 2017 3:12 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Is Jesus the descendant of David in Mark?

Post by MrMacSon »

Kunigunde Kreuzerin wrote: Mon Nov 13, 2017 3:03 pm
.. I think the greater problem is to understand Mark's logic of a possible view of Jesus as a kind of son of David. What could it mean to say that Mark's Jesus is a „spiritual descendant of David“ or that David was his „spiritual ancestor“? Is this more than a phrase? (I'm only asking.)
I agree. My post was rhetorical, somewhat in the hope of a response such as this. So thank you.


Kunigunde Kreuzerin wrote: Mon Nov 13, 2017 3:03 pm
I think one can understand how in Mark's view „John“ is „Elijah“. We know on the one hand it isn't meant literally, but on the other hand it is meant in full sense, what is (for us) hard to grasp. But is John a „spiritual Elijah“?

Whatever, there are enough hints in GMark to recognize John as Elijah, at least as a special kind of Elijah. Mark's logic of this identification may be subtly, but I think it is there and we can understand it, even if we would disagree with his logic. I think if Mark's Jesus is a special kind of David's son then Mark has narrated – at least very subtly - the logic of his view.
I agree.


Kunigunde Kreuzerin wrote: Mon Nov 13, 2017 3:03 pm
I have always understand the confession of Bartimaeus as a conclusion. Jesus is called „Son of David“ because he is the „Nazarene“ what may be the next puzzling thing.
Mark 10:46 And having heard that Jesus the Nazarene is he began to cry out and to say: Son of David, Jesus, have mercy on me.

As said before, I think that in GMark is an Elijanic secret and that Jesus is the „false Elijah“. One could surmise that the „false Son of David“ is Barrabas, the son of „our father David“ (Mark 11:10). Therefore the crowds [chose] Barrabas.

That's all speculations.
I'm presently speculating that this sort of thing arose out of midrash aggada --prevalent while Judaism was in a period of self-examination and re-examination in the century [and more] after the fall of the Second Temple-- and as they laid down various information and views as the Tosefta and Mishna, and/or in other or concurrent documents.

References to the scribes, as you highlighted here, seem pertinent to that -
Kunigunde Kreuzerin wrote: Mon Nov 13, 2017 3:03 pm
... I assume that the questions about Elijah and about the son of David are related together and that Mark has highlighted that.

Mark 9:11 And they asked him, “Why do the scribes say that first Elijah must come?” Mark 12:35 And as Jesus taught in the temple, he said, “How can the scribes say that the Christ is the son of David?

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Re: Is Jesus the descendant of David in Mark?

Post by Giuseppe »

lsayre wrote: Mon Nov 13, 2017 2:34 pm
Giuseppe wrote: Mon Nov 13, 2017 6:28 am Obviously my view is already known in this forum: in the Earliest Gospel the sin of the People is to call Jesus as "the Christ", the "King of Jews" when really Jesus is not the Christ and not the King of Jews. Since he doesn't serve the Creator God.
Is there someone other than Jesus who properly bares the titles "the Christ", the "King of Jews" if Jesus is not the one, and if so who is the one associated with these titles?
The Messiah of the Demiurge has still to come.

About Barabbas, he is not the Jewish Messiah. He was missing in Mcn. He was introduced to remove the idea that Jesus was recognized as Christ/'King of Jews'' by the people. Barabbas and Simon of Cyrene are introduced to put doubt about the identity of Jesus, so that only the reader recognized him as ''the Christ'' (that is the intention of Mark against the Earliest Gospel). THe tactic of Mark was in short: dubita fortiter, sed crede fortius (that Jesus is Christ).

While in the Earliest Gospel the message was: crede fortiter, sed dubita fortius (that Jesus is Christ), .
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
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