The Shroud and Historicity

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
pavurcn
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Re: The Shroud and Historicity

Post by pavurcn »

Ulan wrote: Thu Nov 09, 2017 12:46 pm Leaving aside for a moment that we are most probably looking at a medieval prop that was used to defraud people, you are aware that tens of thousands of Jews were crucified in Judea of the first century?
I'm not at all sure of that figure of tens of thousands, but let's just go on to ask how many had their shrouds preserved up till now with markings that parallel so many features in the gospel accounts?

My estimate is one.
Ulan
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Re: The Shroud and Historicity

Post by Ulan »

pavurcn wrote: Thu Nov 09, 2017 1:04 pm
Ulan wrote: Thu Nov 09, 2017 12:46 pm Leaving aside for a moment that we are most probably looking at a medieval prop that was used to defraud people, you are aware that tens of thousands of Jews were crucified in Judea of the first century?
I'm not at all sure of that figure of tens of thousands, but let's just go on to ask how many had their shrouds preserved up till now with markings that parallel so many features in the gospel accounts?

My estimate is one.
Mine is "none", as even the shroud itself doesn't match the gospel accounts. And "tens of thousands" is something that is taken from the accounts of Josephus.


I must admit that my main interest in this thread is how so many people, some of them even scientists, cling to this kind of story which is an obvious fake. Everything speaks against this, but there are people spending their time defending this object that not even the church itself recognizes as genuine. They just have it because it was a gift from some influential noble, and you don't throw gifts from people who may have their fingers in your career into the trash bin. Today, it's a tourism magnet and brings in lots of money. It also matches the Catholic point of view that it doesn't matter whether such an object is genuine or not as long as it serves as a focal point of faith in the savior.

Human belief is an interesting object of study.
pavurcn
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Re: The Shroud and Historicity

Post by pavurcn »

Ulan wrote: Thu Nov 09, 2017 1:15 pm
I must admit that my main interest in this thread is how so many people, some of them even scientists, cling to this kind of story which is an obvious fake.
"Obvious fake" is quite dubious. An obvious fake would be easy to discredit or disprove. Not so with this shroud.

Since you are interested in church authorities and the Shroud--and that is a whole new topic for research--you may be interested in a talk whose abstract I just read. I don't know if the paper is good or bad, but it comes from a very recent conference whose papers are listed at the link below.
“Avignon and the Shroud of Turin: Authenticity Confirmed” by Jack Markwardt.
The circumstances which surround the fourteenth-century exhibitions of the Shroud in the small French hamlet of Lirey continue to confound historians. The initial expositions go unreferenced in Vatican archives and appear to have proceeded without papal approval. With regard to the later expositions, the sanctioning Pope concealed his reasons for allowing them to take place, silenced a bishop who alleged the relic’s fraudulence, and issued three inconsistent bulls regarding how the cloth was to be described when exhibited. In addition, both the relic’s owners and the Church never publicly disclosed its provenance. This paper will resolve all of the mysteries which surround the Lirey exhibitions and demonstrate that, before they were permitted to commence, the Church determined that the Shroud of Turin was an authentic relic of Jesus Christ. For five centuries thereafter, the Vatican referred to the Shroud as Jesus’ actual burial cloth; however, for reasons which this paper will reveal, the Church now alludes to the relic as an icon, or image.
http://www.shrouduniversity.com/pasco17.php accessed 9/Nov/2017
Kunigunde Kreuzerin
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Re: The Shroud and Historicity

Post by Kunigunde Kreuzerin »

pavurcn wrote: Wed Nov 08, 2017 1:28 pm Interesting question about the kind of wrapping. Was it in strips like mummies? Here is one article ...
A reader writes: ... John 20:5-7 says ... This indicates that there was at least three pieces of fabric that Jesus was wrapped in. So my question is "how can the shroud be His"? My faith lies in what the Bible says, not what scientists say.
I was really impressed :mrgreen: The "reader" rejected the shroud because of GJohn. This was also Calvin's view in "Treatise on Relics".

pavurcn wrote: Wed Nov 08, 2017 1:28 pmthat points to a far more philological one.

Image Figure 1. Body wrapped “according to the custom of the Jews.”(Based on forensic analysis of the image on the Turin Shroud.)

Funny. The problem with such an imagination is obvious.
Further evidence for the Shroud as an art object comes from what might be called the "Mercator projection" argument. The shroud in two dimensions presents a three-dimensional image projected onto a planar (two-dimensional) surface, just as in a photograph or painting. This perspective is consistent with both painting and with image formation using a bas relief
iskander
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Re: The Shroud and Historicity

Post by iskander »

Trading in relics
Keepers Of The Keys Of Heaven: A History Of The Papacy
by Roger Collins
Phoenix,2010,page 157
ISBN 9780753826959
relics 2.PNG
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iskander
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The BO of relics is nauseating

Post by iskander »

relics 3.PNG
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The BO of relics is nauseating. from the same book
iskander
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Thieves, liars, vultures

Post by iskander »

Thieves, liars, vultures
relics 4.PNG
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iskander
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feeding on the dead

Post by iskander »

feeding on the dead : the purgatory con
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Die Deutschen - Die Wege der Deutschen (english sub
Last edited by iskander on Thu Nov 09, 2017 4:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
iskander
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Extortion

Post by iskander »

Extortion
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Die Deutschen - Die Wege der Deutschen (english sub
pavurcn
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Re: The Shroud and Historicity

Post by pavurcn »

To isk: Abusus non tollit usum.

To KK: Beware the bias of the Wikipedia article. The shroud cannot be a painting, science has proven. The truth is out there...that is, seek and ye shall find.
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