Transfiguration without Moses and Elijiah

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Giuseppe
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Transfiguration without Moses and Elijiah

Post by Giuseppe »

2 Peter is surely a historicist epistle:


2 Peter 1:17-21
17 Jesus heard the voice of God, the Greatest Glory, when he received honor and glory from God the Father. The voice said, “This is my Son, whom I love, and I am very pleased with him.” 18 We heard that voice from heaven while we were with Jesus on the holy mountain.
19 This makes us more sure about the message the prophets gave. It is good for you to follow closely what they said as you would follow a light shining in a dark place, until the day begins and the morning star rises in your hearts. 20 Most of all, you must understand this: No prophecy in the Scriptures ever comes from the prophet’s own interpretation. 21 No prophecy ever came from what a person wanted to say, but people led by the Holy Spirit spoke words from God.
But note the absence of any mention about Moses and Elijiah. This may only mean that in the Earliest Gospel there was no mention of these two prophets.

In their place, there were probably two angels:

And it came to pass, while they were perplexed about it,
behold two men stood by them in garments that flashed forth.
(Luke 24:4)
And when they found not his body, they came, saying,
that they had also seen a vision of angels,
which said that he was alive.
(Luke 24:23)
They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them.
(Acts 1:10)
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
Secret Alias
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Re: Transfiguration without Moses and Elijiah

Post by Secret Alias »

It is irreconcilable with reality that the gospel of John does not mention the transfiguration.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Secret Alias
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Re: Transfiguration without Moses and Elijiah

Post by Secret Alias »

It is also worth noting two things:

1. when Irenaeus took that report about the Marcosians (the report is older than Irenaeus for a number of reasons) the Marcosians clearly had a gospel with three figures (in order to arrive at a numerological interpretation of the passage). I believe Clement shares the same interpretation. That IMHO dates the multiple witnesses (= Jesus, Moses, Elijah) to before Irenaeus.
2. I think the Apocalypse of Elijah in Coptic has the event as a post-resurrection event.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
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Ben C. Smith
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Re: Transfiguration without Moses and Elijiah

Post by Ben C. Smith »

Secret Alias wrote: Thu Nov 02, 2017 11:26 amI think the Apocalypse of Elijah in Coptic has the event as a post-resurrection event.
Do you mean the Apocalypse of Peter? Or are the translations of the Coptic Apocalypse of Elijah which are available to me defective?
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andrewcriddle
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Re: Transfiguration without Moses and Elijiah

Post by andrewcriddle »

Ben C. Smith wrote: Thu Nov 02, 2017 12:19 pm
Secret Alias wrote: Thu Nov 02, 2017 11:26 amI think the Apocalypse of Elijah in Coptic has the event as a post-resurrection event.
Do you mean the Apocalypse of Peter? Or are the translations of the Coptic Apocalypse of Elijah which are available to me defective?
Possibly this is the passage in question (about Enoch and Elijah not Moses and Elijah)
On that day the Lord will judge heaven and earth. He will judge those who have transgressed in heaven and those who have done so on earth. He will judge the shepherds of the people. He will ask them about the flock of sheep. They will tell him without deceit. After these things Elijah and Enoch will come down and put aside the flesh of this world and put on their spiritual flesh. They will pursue the the son of lawlessness and kill him, he being unable to speak.
Apocalypse of Elijah

Andrew Criddle
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Re: Transfiguration without Moses and Elijiah

Post by andrewcriddle »

Marcion appears to have had a version of the Transfiguration with Moses and Elijah.
Ephrem Syrus
But concerning Moses and Elijah who were found on the mountain in company with Isu, what do they (i.e. the Marcionites) say that they were doing in his presence ? But they say that they were guardians there. And what. pray, were they guarding, since there was nothing on the mountain ? And if there had been anything on it, the Maker would have had the Cherub and the point of the sword with which to surround the mountain. And if because Isu was a stranger to Him (i.e. to the Maker) they were guarding the mountain for Him, then, as between the mountain and the sanctuary, which of them was greater to the Maker, that He should cease to guard His city and |lx His sanctuary and send them (i.e. Moses and Elijah) to guard a mountain in which there was nothing ? If He did not set forth some symbol there for us, let them tell us what such persons as Moses and Elijah were doing there
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Re: Transfiguration without Moses and Elijiah

Post by Secret Alias »

I forget all these texts. Here's one called the Apocalypse of Peter:

And my Lord Jesus Christ our King said unto me: Let us go unto the holy mountain. And his disciples went with him, praying. And behold there were two men there, and we could not look upon their faces, for a light came from them, shining more than the sun, and their rairment also was shining, and cannot be described, and nothing is sufficient to be compared unto them in this world. And the sweetness of them . . . that no mouth is able to utter the beauty of their appearance (or, the mouth hath not sweetness to express, &c.), for their aspect was astonishing and wonderful. And the other, great, I say (probably: and, in a word, I cannot describe it), shineth in his (sic) aspect above crystal. Like the flower of roses is the appearance of the colour of his aspect and of his body . . . his head (al. their head was a marvel). And upon his (their) shoulders (evidently something about their hair has dropped out) and on their foreheads was a crown of nard woven of fair flowers. As the rainbow in the water, [Probably: in the time of rain. From the LXX of Ezek.i.28.] so was their hair. And such was the comeliness of their countenance, adorned with all manner of ornament. And when we saw them on a sudden, we marvelled. And I drew near unto the Lord (God) Jesus Christ and said unto him: O my Lord, who are these? And he said unto me: They are Moses and Elias. And I said unto him: Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and the rest of the righteous fathers? And he showed us a great garden, open, full of fair trees and blessed fruits, and of the odour of perfumes. The fragrance thereof was pleasant and came even unto us. And thereof (al. of that tree) . . . saw I much fruit. And my Lord and God Jesus Christ said unto me: Hast thou seen the companies of the fathers?

As is their rest, such also is the honour and the glory of them that are persecuted for my righteousness' sake. And I rejoiced and believed [and believed] and understood that which is written in the book of my Lord Jesus Christ. And I said unto him: O my Lord, wilt thou that I make here three tabernacles, one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias? And he said unto me in wrath: Satan maketh war against thee, and hath veiled thine understanding; and the good things of this world prevail against thee. Thine eyes therefore must be opened and thine ears unstopped that a tabernacle, not made with men's hands, which my heavenly Father hath made for me and for the elect. And we beheld it and were full of gladness.

And behold, suddenly there came a voice from heaven, saying: This is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased: my commandments. And then came a great and exceeding white cloud over our heads and bare away our Lord and Moses and Elias. And I trembled and was afraid: and we looked up and the heaven opened and we beheld men in the flesh, and they came and greeted our Lord and Moses and Elias and went into another heaven. And the word of the scripture was fulfilled: This is the generation that seeketh him and seeketh the face of the God of Jacob. And great fear and commotion was there in heaven and the angels pressed one upon another that the word of the scripture might be fulfilled which saith: Open the gates, ye princes.

Thereafter was the heaven shut, that had been open.

And we prayed and went down from the mountain, glorifying God, which hath written the names of the righteous in heaven in the book of life.
http://gnosis.org/library/apocpeter.htm
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
robert j
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Re: Transfiguration without Moses and Elijiah

Post by robert j »

Regarding the version of the transfiguration in 2 Pater ---
Giuseppe wrote: Thu Nov 02, 2017 10:37 am
2 Peter 1:17-21 ... note the absence of any mention about Moses and Elijiah. This may only mean that in the Earliest Gospel there was no mention of these two prophets.
I agree with the predominance of scholars that place 2 Peter as one of the last of the NT books to be composed (though perhaps, in part, for a few differing reasons).

Regardless, that makes 2 Peter a very poor source of evidence for what may, or may not, have been in the earliest Gospel.

2 Peter is, I think, one of the more interesting and revealing of the NT books --- with the author having some very specific agendas --- but that's a discussion for another time.
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Re: Transfiguration without Moses and Elijiah

Post by robert j »

robert j wrote: Thu Nov 02, 2017 1:40 pm 2 Peter is, I think, one of the more interesting and revealing of the NT books --- with the author having some very specific agendas --- but that's a discussion for another time.
Here’s part of a longer piece I wrote about the 2 Peter transfiguration a while back in another OP ---
robert j wrote: Sun May 18, 2014 9:25 am ... The transfiguration scene in 2 Peter (1:16-19) bears little resemblance to the versions found in the synoptic New Testament Gospels. The 2 Peter author cast the event in terms of a Mystery-Religion ritual, an experiential-sharing with the divine. The scene is cleverly introduced with the Greek term epoptai, typically translated in bibles as "eyewitness". But in an historical context, the word was used primarily as a technical term in the non-Christian Eleusinian Mysteries, widespread in the eastern Mediterranean at the time. The term was used to designate advanced initiates who had attained esoteric knowledge and had personally experienced the divine light. This is the only instance in the Christian bible where this word is used.

Totally missing in 2 Peter is the walking, talking, glowing man-Jesus found in all three synoptic Gospel versions of the transfiguration. In 2 Peter, a diaphanous Jesus is not an actor in the play, but merely a concept. Peter and his unnamed companions hear a "…. voice brought from heaven, being with Him on the holy mount." (2 Peter 1:18) This language is descriptive of a Mystery-Religion ritual where initiates seek to be "with" their god and to "hear" a divine message as they enter into the divine light. But this “voice” from heaven does nothing more than quote passages from the Jewish scriptures (2 Peter 1:17) .

And what does the author follow with directly to those who may not be adequately impressed with his magical Mystery-experience on the mountain? He said, "And we have the sure prophetic word, to which you do well to take heed as to a lamp bringing light in a dark place …." (2 Peter 1:19). The 2 Peter author falls back to the ultimate proof and knowledge of the mysteries of Jesus …… the scriptures.

The author continues his drama, extending the magical Mystery tour with a scene reminiscent of a night-long, mountaintop ritual continuing "…. until that day should dawn and the bringer of light should arise in your own hearts." (2 Peter 1:19). This poetic passage, dripping with flavor of the Mysteries, is an enticement of personal enlightenment. The audience is told they have the rock-solid scriptures that can for now, if heeded, provide a light in the darkness, until that day of their own enlightenment when they too can share in the divine nature ---- when they too become epoptai.

The Greek phosphoros (2 Peter 1:19), meaning light-bringer, was the Greek name for their god of the morning star. His mother was Eos, the dawn, and he was often depicted as a child flying before her carrying a torch. This is another 2 Peter term found nowhere else in the New Testament ...

robert j.

ETA: The influence of the Mystery religions that is evident here is, I think, a result of local rituals to which the intended audience could relate, and that the author was attempting to use to his advantage ---- rather than Mystery-religion origins for these traditions.
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GakuseiDon
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Re: Transfiguration without Moses and Elijiah

Post by GakuseiDon »

Giuseppe wrote: Thu Nov 02, 2017 10:37 am2 Peter is surely a historicist epistle:

2 Peter 1:17-21
17 Jesus heard the voice of God, the Greatest Glory, when he received honor and glory from God the Father. The voice said, “This is my Son, whom I love, and I am very pleased with him.” 18 We heard that voice from heaven while we were with Jesus on the holy mountain.
19 This makes us more sure about the message the prophets gave. It is good for you to follow closely what they said as you would follow a light shining in a dark place, until the day begins and the morning star rises in your hearts. 20 Most of all, you must understand this: No prophecy in the Scriptures ever comes from the prophet’s own interpretation. 21 No prophecy ever came from what a person wanted to say, but people led by the Holy Spirit spoke words from God.
I'll here do that thing I hate, where I bring up my own monomania in a thread where it is probably tangential. But it is more a comment than anything else.

Is 2 Peter "surely" a historicist epistle? Note that you have high-lighted the only statement in the letter that could conceivably be a reference to a historical Jesus. The rest of the letter (though short) is little different in content or form to those epistles often argued to be 'mythicist' by some mythicists. There are few details to time and space. There is not even a specific reference to Jerusalem! Acting as the devil's advocate, you could even argue that the 'eye-witness' reference was to a vision of Jesus, rather than to an earthly Jesus. There is nothing else in the text that specifically points to an earthly Jesus.

So is the difference in content between "historicist" epistles and "mythicist" epistles just the ONE reference? Is the fact that the form and content of such epistles are virtually identical (use of OT writings, lack of historical details, etc) not part of that analysis? If that one reference was not there, or could arguably be explained away with a mythicist slant, is there no other way that we can differentiate between the two types of letters? If so, how does that help to set the expectations of what we find in the "mythicist" epistles?

Something to consider!
Giuseppe wrote: Thu Nov 02, 2017 10:37 amBut note the absence of any mention about Moses and Elijiah. This may only mean that in the Earliest Gospel there was no mention of these two prophets.
Getting back to the topic: When do you date 2 Peter? 2 Peter mentions Paul, so it is at a point that Paul has gained some authority. The ECW website has a range of 100-160 CE. Where do you fit it into the time-line?
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