Resurrection of the flesh AND eternal life?

[Stefan Kristensen]

Although it is debatable whether the idea of the resurrection of the flesh appears anywhere in the NT, it nevertheless became Christian doctrine that the resurrection to eternal life would be a resurrection of the flesh. But that logically has to mean a different kind of flesh which can last forever and decidedly not the kind of flesh humans have in this life. The resurrection of the flesh has to mean 'the resurrection and the changing of the flesh'.

1. Among the discussions of the church fathers and early Christians concerning the nature of the resurrection body, does anybody know where I might find them treating this specific question of this special incorruptible, 'everlasting' flesh of the resurrection?

2. And was this notion anywhere connected with the story of Adam in Gen 2-3 and his change of condition from being immortal to becoming mortal?

Thanks.

[iskander]

Although it is debatable whether the idea of the resurrection of the flesh appears anywhere in the NT, it nevertheless became Christian doctrine that the resurrection to eternal life would be a resurrection of the flesh. But that logically has to mean a different kind of flesh which can last forever and decidedly not the kind of flesh humans have in this life. The resurrection of the flesh has to mean 'the resurrection and the changing of the flesh'.

1. Among the discussions of the church fathers and early Christians concerning the nature of the resurrection body, does anybody know where I might find them treating this specific question of this special incorruptible, 'everlasting' flesh of the resurrection?

2. And was this notion anywhere connected with the story of Adam in Gen 2-3 and his change of condition from being immortal to becoming mortal?

Thanks.

Have you explored the CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH?.

I entered ' resurrection" in a pdf and got many hits explaining the doctrine with references to texts on which it is based.


This is a sample of the type of answer you will get:

II. "BODY AND SOUL BUT TRULY ONE"
362 The human person, created in the image of God, is a being at once corporeal and spiritual. The biblical account expresses this reality in symbolic language when it affirms that "then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being."229 Man, whole and entire, is therefore willed by God.
...
366 The Church teaches that every spiritual soul is created immediately by God - it is not "produced" by the parents - and also that it is immortal: it does not perish when it separates from the body at death, and it will be reunited with the body at the final Resurrection.235


Ezekiel's vision of the valley of dry bones:( chapter 37) is a ' textbook' description of the resurrection of the flesh which is easily transformed into an eternal event in Paradise.

Athanasius

Yes, "not salvation from hell but from death"..because in the earliest period the church's
imminent eschatology led members to believe that the calamities of the end times were
pending, but that the elect would survive them (Mark 13:20), so that "we shall not all die"
(1Cor 15:51), because whoever obeys Jesus will not taste death (John 8:51).
And if Peter had continued on quoting Joel he would have announced that "in
Mount Zion and in Jerusalem..shall be those who escape..the survivors.."(Joel
2:32).

But when Christians began dying there was panic and anxiety, among the
"uninformed", who were urged not to "grieve as others do who have no
hope"(1Thess 4:15).

Salvation from death is what Athanasius believes.
Salvation from death. The just are resuscitated to live forever whereas the evil remain dead forever; Athanasius, on the Incarnation. This seems to have been the belief of early Christians.

" But if they went astray and became vile, throwing away their birth right of beauty, then they would come under the natural law of death and live no longer in paradise, but, dying outside of it, continue in death and in corruption.

This is what Holy Scripture tells us, proclaiming the command of God, "Of every tree that is in the garden thou shalt surely eat, but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil ye shall not eat, but in the day that ye do eat, ye shall surely die."7 "Ye shall surely die"—not just die only, but remain in the state of death and of corruption."

On the Incarnation of the Word , Athanasius, St. Archbishop of Alexandria (c.296-c.373)
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2548&p=57816&hilit= ... ius#p57816

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2987&p=66596&hilit= ... ius#p66596

[GakuseiDon]

1. Among the discussions of the church fathers and early Christians concerning the nature of the resurrection body, does anybody know where I might find them treating this specific question of this special incorruptible, 'everlasting' flesh of the resurrection?

2. And was this notion anywhere connected with the story of Adam in Gen 2-3 and his change of condition from being immortal to becoming mortal?

For (1), I've given some links below to early Christian writers that might interest you. For (2), I'm not aware off-hand if any early Christian or Jewish writer discusses that subject. That would be fascinating.

One dilemma that early Christian philosophers had to face was: if a man falls into the sea and his flesh is eaten by fish, then another man eats those fish, what happens to the flesh when the resurrection occurs? Who gets to keep that flesh? This seems to be one of the questions raised to Christians by pagan opponents.

On flesh and resurrection, Tertullian has the following articles on the topic:

Tertullian: "On the resurrection of the flesh": http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/t ... ian16.html (Lots of references to Adam)
Tertullian: "On the flesh of Christ": http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/t ... ian15.html

Other bits and pieces:

Tatian: "Address to the Greeks": http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/t ... dress.html

And on this account we believe that there will be a resurrection of bodies after the consummation of all things; not, as the Stoics affirm, according to the return of certain cycles, the same things being produced and destroyed for no useful purpose, but a resurrection once for all, when our periods of existence are completed, and in consequence solely of the constitution of things under which men alone live, for the purpose of passing judgment upon them...

And, although you regard us as mere triflers and babblers, it troubles us not, since we have faith in this doctrine. For just as, not existing before I was born, I knew not who I was, and only existed in the potentiality (upostasis) Of fleshly matter, but being born, after a former state of nothingness, I have obtained through my birth a certainty of my existence; in the same way, having been born, and through death existing no longer, and seen no longer, I shall exist again, just as before I was not, but was afterwards born. Even though fire destroy all traces of my flesh, the world receives the vaporized matter; and though dispersed through rivers and seas, or torn in pieces by wild beasts, I am laid up in the storehouses of a wealthy Lord...

For the heavenly Logos, a spirit emanating from the Father and a Logos from the Logos-power, in imitation of the Father who begat Him made man an image of immortality, so that, as incorruption is with God, in like manner, man, sharing in a part of God, might have the immortal principle also.

Justin Martyr: "First Apology": http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/t ... ology.html

... since we expect to receive again our own bodies, though they be dead and cast into the earth, for we maintain that with God nothing is impossible.

And to any thoughtful person would anything appear more incredible, than, if we were not in the body, and some one were to say that it was possible that from a small drop of human seed bones and sinews and flesh be formed into a shape such as we see? For let this now be said hypothetically: if you yourselves were not such as you now are, and born of such parents [and causes], and one were to show you human seed and a picture of a man, and were to say with confidence that from such a substance such a being could be produced, would you believe before you saw the actual production? No one will dare to deny [that such a statement would surpass belief]. In the same way, then, you are now incredulous because you have never seen a dead man rise again. But as at first you would not have believed it possible that such persons could be produced from the small drop, and yet now you see them thus produced, so also judge ye that it is not impossible that the bodies of men, after they have been dissolved, and like seeds resolved into earth, should in God's appointed time rise again and put on incorruption.

[GakuseiDon]

Also Athenagoras of Athens, in his "Resurrection of the Dead", where he gives the "fish" dilemma:

When animals of the kind suitable for human food, which have fed on the bodies of men, pass through their stomach, and become incorporated with the bodies of those who have partaken of them, it is an absolute necessity, they say, that the parts of the bodies of men which have served as nourishment to the animals which have partaken of them should pass into other bodies of men, since the animals which meanwhile have been nourished by them convey the nutriment derived from those by whom they were nourished into those men of whom they become the nutriment...

Would any one have believed, unless taught by experience, that in the soft seed alike in all its parts there was deposited such a variety and number of great powers, or of masses, which in this way arise and become consolidated--I mean of bones, and nerves, and cartilages, of muscles too, and flesh, and intestines, and the other parts of the body? For neither in the yet moist seed is anything of this kind to be seen, nor even in infants do any of those things make their appearance which pertain to adults, or in the adult period what belongs to those who are past their prime, or in these what belongs to such as have grown old. But although some of the things I have said exhibit not at all, and others but faintly, the natural sequence and the changes that come upon the nature of men, yet all who are not blinded in their judgment of these matters by vice or sloth, know that there must be first the depositing of the seed, and that when this is completely organized in respect of every member and part and the progeny comes forth to the light, there comes the growth belonging to the first period of life, and the maturity which attends growth, and after the maturity the slackening of the physical powers till old age, and then, when the body is worn out, its dissolution. As, therefore, in this matter, though neither the seed has inscribed upon it the life or form of men, nor the life the dissolution into the primary elements; the succession of natural occurrences makes things credible which have no credibility from the phenomena themselves, much more does reason, tracing out the truth from the natural sequence, afford ground for believing in the resurrection, since it is safer and stronger than experience for establishing the truth.

It reminds me of a joke I first heard on a Dave Allen TV program:

A priest was giving a sermon: "Repent! For the kingdom of God is at hand. Hell awaits those who don't repent, where there will be gnashing of teeth."

An old woman in the congregation asked: "What if you don't have any teeth?"

The priest looked at the old woman and said, "Teeth will be provided!"

[andrewcriddle]

.................................

It reminds me of a joke I first heard on a Dave Allen TV program:

A priest was giving a sermon: "Repent! For the kingdom of God is at hand. Hell awaits those who don't repent, where there will be gnashing of teeth."

An old woman in the congregation asked: "What if you don't have any teeth?"

The priest looked at the old woman and said, "Teeth will be provided!"

See Teeth Will Be Provided

Andrew Criddle

[iskander]

CCC
349 The eighth day. But for us a new day has dawned: the day of Christ's Resurrection. The seventh day completes the first creation. The eighth day begins the new creation. Thus, the work of creation culminates in the greater work of redemption. The first creation finds its meaning and its summit in the new creation in Christ, the splendour of which surpasses that of the first creation.217

Article 349 of the CCC explains that the resurrection will happen on the eighth day of creation after God had rested on the seventh.
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/a ... s2c1p5.htm

[robert j]

Although it is debatable whether the idea of the resurrection of the flesh appears anywhere in the NT, it nevertheless became Christian doctrine that the resurrection to eternal life would be a resurrection of the flesh. But that logically has to mean a different kind of flesh which can last forever and decidedly not the kind of flesh humans have in this life. The resurrection of the flesh has to mean 'the resurrection and the changing of the flesh'.

1. Among the discussions of the church fathers and early Christians concerning the nature of the resurrection body, does anybody know where I might find them treating this specific question of this special incorruptible, 'everlasting' flesh of the resurrection?

Paul, drawing on his Jewish traditions, developed the concept in relation to his Christ spirit. I think the subsequent Christian doctrine evolved from Paul's version. Here's a pertinent discussion that I wrote in another OP ---

Paul claimed to have once followed the precepts of the Pharisees “according to the law” (Philippians 3:5). I suspect Paul’s system carried along at least some basic assumptions from Pharisaic concepts of resurrection.

If one can rely on the report of Josephus --- the Pharisees believed in some sort of embodied resurrection of the righteous ---

They say that all souls are incorruptible, but that the souls of good men only are removed into other bodies, --- but that the souls of bad men are subject to eternal punishment … (Josephus, Wars 2.8.14)

This Pharisaic concept of being “removed into other bodies” is clearly reflected in Paul’s extended arguments about the nature of the resurrected body (1 Corinthians 15:35-56) ---

So also the resurrection from the dead: It is sown in decay; it is raised in incorruption … It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body … (1 Cor 15:42-44) (see also 1 Cor 15:50-54)

2. And was this notion anywhere connected with the story of Adam in Gen 2-3 and his change of condition from being immortal to becoming mortal?

For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive (1 Cor 15:22) ...

So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being;” the last Adam a life-giving spirit. The spiritual, however, was not first, but the natural, and then the spiritual. The first man was of the dust of the earth, the second man from heaven... And just as we have borne the likeness of the earthly man, so also shall we bear the likeness of the heavenly man. (1 Cor 45-49)

Paul drew on Genesis for this ---

And God formed man, dust from the earth, and breathed into his face a breath of life, and the man became a living being. (Gen 2:7)

[iskander]

One problem with resurrection :
Papal encyclical Benedictus Deus

Benedictus Deus
On the Beatific Vision of God
Pope Benedict XII - December 20, 1334
Constitution issued by Pope Benedict XII in 1336
http://www.papalencyclicals.net/ben12/b12bdeus.htm
http://www.papalencyclicals.net/ben12/b12bdeus.htm
By this Constitution which is to remain in force for ever,.. : all these souls, immediately (mox) after death... already before they take up their bodies again and before the general judgment, have been, are and will be with Christ in heaven, in the heavenly kingdom and paradise, joined to the company of the holy angels.
...
(On hell and the general judgment)
Moreover we define that according to the general disposition of God, the souls of those who die in actual mortal sin go down into hell immediately (mox) after death and there suffer the pain of hell. Nevertheless, on the day of judgment all men will appear with their bodies “before the judgment seat of Christ” to give an account of their personal deeds, “so that each one may receive good or evil, according to what he has done in the body” (2 Cor. 5.10).

[pavurcn]

Although it is debatable whether the idea of the resurrection of the flesh appears anywhere in the NT...

I'm surprised at such an idea, given the post-resurrection dining Jesus engages in, as for example in Luke 24:36-42:

36 As they were saying this, Jesus himself stood among them, and said to them, “Peace to you.”[e] 37 But they were startled and frightened, and supposed that they saw a spirit. 38 And he said to them, “Why are you troubled, and why do questionings rise in your hearts?[f] 39 See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself; handle me, and see; for a spirit has not flesh and bones as you see that I have.” 40 And when he had said this, he showed them his hands and his feet.[g] 41 And while they still disbelieved for joy, and wondered, he said to them, “Have you anything here to eat?” 42 They gave him a piece of broiled fish, 43 and he took it and ate before them.

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[Stefan Kristensen]

Thank you very much, GakuseiDon and Iskander and Robert J. I'm looking into it.

Although it is debatable whether the idea of the resurrection of the flesh appears anywhere in the NT...

I'm surprised at such an idea, given the post-resurrection dining Jesus engages in, as for example in Luke 24:36-42

You're right, Luke states outright that Jesus' resurrection body was "flesh and bones". Still, there are some who contend that Luke actually means that the resurrection of the dead will be a fleshy affair. I think they usually talk about that Jesus' flesh body was temporary, or that he had become a spiritual being able to turn himself to flesh at will, as he "presented himself to them alive by many proofs after he had suffered" and "appeared to them through forty days" (Acts 1:3).

Or that Luke believed that Jesus' resurrection was unique in that he walked around in flesh form among the fleshy beings before being taken to heaven in spirit form, whereas the resurrection of the dead will be either directly to heaven in spirit form or temporary flesh form for the judgement and then the new bodies after the judgement. Passages that are drawn upon are for example the angels eating in Gen 18 and 19, and Luke's peculiar formulation in 3:22 that the spirit descended upon Jesus at his baptism "in bodily form like a dove".

So it is debatable, but to me it also looks like Luke has the idea that the resurrection of the dead will be in flesh form – contrary to Paul. But then again, the question still arises:
What kind of flesh is incorruptible flesh?
Flesh that can eat fish like the resurrected Jesus?
Incorruptible flesh that can still be hungry?
Flesh that has death marks on it for ever (cf. Luke 24:40)?
Do Jesus' death marks vanish from his flesh, according to Luke, as he is taken up to heaven, or do they remain on his body up there in heaven?
Flesh that can "become invisible" at will (Luke 24,31)?