Why Are Historicists So Certain That Jesus Existed?

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
Ulan
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Re: Why Are Historicists So Certain That Jesus Existed?

Post by Ulan »

John T wrote: Sun Nov 12, 2017 5:03 am Shoe is now on the other food and it is uncomfortable for the mythicists to admit to their double standard. Be as that may, let's see if I can give them a blister on their big toe of hypocrisy.

So, tell us if the Jewish revolt was real and the real causes behind it. Keep in mind the roles are now reversed and I get to use your double standard against you. :popcorn:
Are you really that deluded that you didn't check what "The Antiquities of the Jews. Book 20, chapter 9,1" actually says? Do I have to quote the chapter for you and ask you to show me where Josephus says anything about the role of the death of James the Just in the start of the Jewish War like you or Eusebius claim?

For the lazy:
AND now Caesar, upon hearing the death of Festus, sent Albinus into Judea, as procurator. But the king deprived Joseph of the high priesthood, and bestowed the succession to that dignity on the son of Ananus, who was also himself called Ananus. Now the report goes that this eldest Ananus proved a most fortunate man; for he had five sons who had all performed the office of a high priest to God, and who had himself enjoyed that dignity a long time formerly, which had never happened to any other of our high priests. But this younger Ananus, who, as we have told you already, took the high priesthood, was a bold man in his temper, and very insolent; he was also of the sect of the Sadducees, 1 who are very rigid in judging offenders, above all the rest of the Jews, as we have already observed; when, therefore, Ananus was of this disposition, he thought he had now a proper opportunity [to exercise his authority]. Festus was now dead, and Albinus was but upon the road; so he assembled the sanhedrim of judges, and brought before them the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James, and some others, [or, some of his companions]; and when he had formed an accusation against them as breakers of the law, he delivered them to be stoned: but as for those who seemed the most equitable of the citizens, and such as were the most uneasy at the breach of the laws, they disliked what was done; they also sent to the king [Agrippa], desiring him to send to Ananus that he should act so no more, for that what he had already done was not to be justified; nay, some of them went also to meet Albinus, as he was upon his journey from Alexandria, and informed him that it was not lawful for Ananus to assemble a sanhedrim without his consent. 2 Whereupon Albinus complied with what they said, and wrote in anger to Ananus, and threatened that he would bring him to punishment for what he had done; on which king Agrippa took the high priesthood from him, when he had ruled but three months, and made Jesus, the son of Damneus, high priest.
Source

So where does it say anything about the reason for the Jewish War, or that it was related to the death of James the Just? You can go and look through the next chapters, if you want. There is nothing. Both, Eusebius and you were wrong.
hakeem
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Re: Why Are Historicists So Certain That Jesus Existed?

Post by hakeem »

John T wrote: Fri Nov 10, 2017 7:19 am The historian Josephus who witnessed first hand the Jewish revolt against the Roman occupation wrote that one of the main causes of the war was due to the execution of James the Just, the brother of Jesus.

The Antiquities of the Jews. Book 20, chapter 9, 1.

Therefore, a historical Jesus existed.

Of course the mythicists will claim the references to Jesus by Josephus are all interpolations yet, they have no proof, only wishful thinking. :scratch:

Academic double standards abound in the make-believe world of the mythicist.
James in Antiquities of the Jews 20.9.1 is not James the brother of the Lord and in addition, Jesus called the anointed [christos] in AJ 20 was alive in the time of Damneus or up to at least 63 CE.

James the brother of Jesus in Antiquities was stoned to death c 61-62 CE or just before Albinus was governor of Judea.

James the Lord's brother was alive up to at least the 14th year of Nero or at least up to 68 CE in Christian writings.

The Preface of the Recognitions
The epistle in which the same Clement, writing to James the Lord's brother, informs him of the death of Peter, and that he had left him his successor in his chair...
De Viris Illustribus
He then, in the fourteenth year of Nero on the same day with Peter, was beheaded at Rome for Christ's sake...
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John T
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Re: Why Are Historicists So Certain That Jesus Existed?

Post by John T »

Ulan wrote: Sun Nov 12, 2017 6:14 am
John T wrote: Sun Nov 12, 2017 5:03 am Shoe is now on the other food and it is uncomfortable for the mythicists to admit to their double standard. Be as that may, let's see if I can give them a blister on their big toe of hypocrisy.

So, tell us if the Jewish revolt was real and the real causes behind it. Keep in mind the roles are now reversed and I get to use your double standard against you. :popcorn:
So where does it say anything about the reason for the Jewish War, or that it was related to the death of James the Just? You can go and look through the next chapters, if you want. There is nothing. Both, Eusebius and you were wrong.
Toe stub number 1.

You are off to a bad start. You are tasked to list the main causes of the Jewish War, if the war even happened.
Please start again.

Thanks in advance.

John T
"It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into."...Jonathan Swift
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Re: Why Are Historicists So Certain That Jesus Existed?

Post by Secret Alias »

Sorry, but I think you missed my point regarding the double standard used by mythicists when it comes to the historicity of Jesus.

"Josephus also has not hesitated to add this testimony in his works: "These things," said he, "happened to the Jews to avenge James the Just, who was the brother of him that is called Christ, and whom the Jews had slain, notwithstanding his pre-eminent justice."...Eusebius' Ecclesiastical History Book2, chapter 23, (20).

John T
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Secret Alias
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Re: Why Are Historicists So Certain That Jesus Existed?

Post by Secret Alias »

John T can't thinking critically. If Eusebius says that Josephus said it, that's the same as Josephus saying it for the uncritical John T.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Ulan
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Re: Why Are Historicists So Certain That Jesus Existed?

Post by Ulan »

John T wrote: Sun Nov 12, 2017 9:04 am
Ulan wrote: Sun Nov 12, 2017 6:14 am
John T wrote: Sun Nov 12, 2017 5:03 am Shoe is now on the other food and it is uncomfortable for the mythicists to admit to their double standard. Be as that may, let's see if I can give them a blister on their big toe of hypocrisy.

So, tell us if the Jewish revolt was real and the real causes behind it. Keep in mind the roles are now reversed and I get to use your double standard against you. :popcorn:
So where does it say anything about the reason for the Jewish War, or that it was related to the death of James the Just? You can go and look through the next chapters, if you want. There is nothing. Both, Eusebius and you were wrong.
Toe stub number 1.

You are off to a bad start. You are tasked to list the main causes of the Jewish War, if the war even happened.
Please start again.

Thanks in advance.

John T
You seem to be confused. I have not been tasked with anything. We were actually talking about a claim made by you about what Josephus said about James the Just. I have quoted at you the full extent of what Josephus had to say about James the Just. The conclusion is that you were mistaken. You are spreading myths.

If you are interested in the Jewish War, read Josephus. He has a lot to say about it. Unfortunately, he doesn't have to say much about James the Just.

However, I notice that you now have said several times stuff similar to "if the Jewish War is real". Are you doubting the Jewish War was real?
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John T
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Re: Why Are Historicists So Certain That Jesus Existed?

Post by John T »

Toe stub number 2.

So, in other words you don't know and/or care to know about history. Let alone the main causes of the Jewish War but you do know one thing, that the murder of James the Just had nothing do to with it, even if Josephus took the time to write them down.

Why?

Because as a mythicist you are only interested in one thing and it ain't history. To admit that James the Just existed is by extension to admit that Jesus existed.

The Mythicist Agenda.

"What this means is that, ironically, just as the secular humanists spend so much time at their annual meetings talking about religion, so too the mythicists who are so intent on showing that the historical Jesus never existed are not being driven by a historical concern. Their agenda is religious, and they are complicit in a religious ideology. They are not doing history; they are doing theology."...Bart Ehrman, Did Jesus Exist? pg. 337-338.

Got it.
We always did.

John T
"It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into."...Jonathan Swift
Secret Alias
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Re: Why Are Historicists So Certain That Jesus Existed?

Post by Secret Alias »

So, in other words you don't know and/or care to know about history. Let alone the main causes of the Jewish War but you do know one thing, that the murder of James the Just had nothing do to with it, even if Josephus took the time to write them down
So you 'know' that the Jewish War was caused by the death of James the Just? How do you know that?
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
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MrMacSon
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Re: Why Are Historicists So Certain That Jesus Existed?

Post by MrMacSon »

John T wrote: Sun Nov 12, 2017 1:03 pm
So, in other words you don't know and/or care to know about history ...

... To admit that James the Just existed ...
Which James is 'James 'the Just'' ?
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neilgodfrey
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Re: Why Are Historicists So Certain That Jesus Existed?

Post by neilgodfrey »

John T wrote: Sun Nov 12, 2017 5:03 am

So, tell us if the Jewish revolt was real and the real causes behind it. Keep in mind the roles are now reversed and I get to use your double standard against you. :popcorn:

John T
My views of the Jewish revolt align pretty closely to the case argued by Steve Mason in his latest publication on the war. If you find flaws in his work then you find flaws in my own views on the causes of the war. I certainly fully agree with Mason's discussion of how to understand and interpret the writings of Josephus, with particular focus on the evidence we have for the real causes of the war and the reasons Josephus wrote up the narrative details he did.

I trust you will find no hypocrisy in my response.
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