Deconstructed Letters of Paulos
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Re: Deconstructed Letters of Paulos
From http://historical-jesus.info/appp.html
>> The Corinthians letters
"... the letters we call 1 and 2 Corinthians formed part of a larger collection that originally consisted of several letters... We are left with the impression that the extant letters reflect an editing and combining of writings, compiled as the community processed and integrated the words of the apostle"
The Catholic study bible, second edition, page 450
3.1 The 1Corinthians letter is a combination of three letters by Paul:
'1aCorinthians' (written early 53): 1:10-4:21
'1bCorinthians' (written later in 53): 9:1-27
'1cCorinthians' (written early 55): the rest (except 1:4-9, 11:23-28, 14:33b-35, 15:3-11, 15:23-28 & 15:56 added later. See included explanations)
Why is '1Corinthians' made up of three different letters?
a) Different travel plans:
'1aCorinthians' --> 1Co4:17-19 "... but I will come to you very soon ..."; "... I am sending to you Timothy, ..."
'1cCorinthians' --> 1Co16:5-11 "After I go through Macedonia , I will come to you ... But I will stay on at Ephesus until Pentecost, ..." ; "... if Timothy comes, ..."
b) Different relationship between Paul and the Christians of Corinth:
Paul is partly rejected in '1aCorinthians':
1Co1:11b-12 "... there are quarrels among you. What I mean is this: One of you says, "I follow Paul"; another, "I follow Apollos"; another, "I follow Cephas"; still another, "I follow Christ.""
and also in '1bCorinthians':
1Co9:1b-2a "... Am I not an apostle? Have I not seen Jesus our Lord? Are you not the result of my work in the Lord? Even though I may not be an apostle to others, surely I am to you! ..."
However, he appears fully accepted in '1cCorinthians':
1Co16:10-11b "If Timothy comes, see to it that he has nothing to fear while he is with you, for he is carrying on the work of the Lord, just as I am. No one, then, should refuse to accept him ..."
totally in control, very confident, feeling free to ramble & reveal his inner thoughts and dealing as a bishop would towards his flock. For example, Paul is judging a sinner (as God would!):
1Co5:3b-5a "... And I have already passed judgment on the one who did this, just as if I were present. When you are assembled in the name of our Lord Jesus and I am with you in spirit , and the power of our Lord Jesus is present, hand this man over to Satan ..."
and putting himself as equal of the "Lord" in issuing commands:
1Co7:10,12 "To the married I give this command (not I, but the Lord): A wife must not separate from her husband. ... To the rest I say this (I, not the Lord): If any brother has a wife who is not a believer and she is willing to live with him, he must not divorce her."
c) Insertion:
'1bCorinthians' (all about Paul's problems) is evidently an insertion in a passage where Paul is rambling about Christian food, idolatry and sexual immorality (1Co5:1-8:13,10:1-11:1).
1Co8:11-13,10:1-3 "And because of your knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died? But when you thus sin against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, you sin against Christ. Therefore, if food makes my brother stumble, I will never again eat meat, lest I make my brother stumble. [1bCorinthians inserted here]
Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, all ate the same spiritual food,"
3.2 The 2Corinthians letter is also a combination of three letters by Paul:
'2aCorinthians' (written late spring 55): 2:14-7:4 (except 5:10,6:14-7:1 added later. See included explanations)
'2bCorinthians' (written late summer 55): 10:1-13:10
'2cCorinthians' (written late 56): the rest (except 1:1-2,13:11-14 added later)
Why is '2Corinthians' made up of three different letters?
a) Insertion:
'2aCorinthians' is obviously an insertion in a passage dealing with Paul going to Macedonia to meet Titus.
2Co2:12-13,7:5-6 "Now when I went to Troas to preach the gospel of Christ and found that the Lord had opened a door for me, I still had no peace of mind, because I did not find my brother Titus there. So I said good-by to them and went on to Macedonia. [2aCorinthians inserted here] For when we came into Macedonia, this body of ours had no rest, but we were harassed at every turn--conflicts on the outside, fears within. But God, who comforts the downcast, comforted us by the coming of Titus, and not only by his coming but also by the comfort you had given him."
Note: '2aCorinthians' was written from the point of view of Paul and his helpers, using "we", "us" & "ours". The Christian "editor" likely changed the "I", "me" & "mine" in the three verses after the insertion. Afterwards, things become more normal:
2Co7:7-8 "... us ... me ... me ... my ... I ... my ... I ... I ... I ... my ..."
b) Different relationship between Paul and the Christians of Corinth:
Almost fully rejected in '2aCorinthians':
2Co6:12-13 "We have spoken freely to you, Corinthians, and opened wide our hearts to you. We are not withholding our affection from you, but you are withholding yours from us. As a fair exchange --I speak as to my children-- open wide your hearts also."
2Co7:2-3 "Make room for us in your hearts. We have wronged no one, we have corrupted no one, we have exploited no one. I do not say this to condemn you; I have said before that you have such a place in our hearts that we would live or die with you."
and also in '2bCorinthians':
2Co12:20b-21a "... I fear that there may be quarreling, jealousy, outbursts of anger, factions, slander, gossip, arrogance and disorder. I am afraid that when I come again my God will humble me before you ..."
2Co13:1-3a "This will be my third visit to you. "Every matter must be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses." I already gave you a warning when I was with you the second time. I now repeat it while absent: On my return I will not spare those who sinned earlier or any of the others, since you are demanding proof that Christ is speaking through me."
But Paul is fully accepted (but cautious) in '2cCorinthians':
2Co1:21-22 "Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come."
2Co7:7 "... He [Titus] told us about your longing for me, your deep sorrow, your ardent concern for me, so that my joy was greater than ever."
To the same Christians, Paul is imploring for reconciliation in '2aCorinthians' (2Co5:19-20), he is most angry in '2bCorinthians' (2Co11:13-15) but very forgiving (2Co2:5-11,7:8-9) & friendly in '2cCorinthians':
2Co7:16 "I am glad I can have complete confidence in you [the Christians of Corinth]."
c) The mentioned other letter:
In '2cCorinthians', Paul keeps referring to a letter he wrote earlier:
2Co2:3-4a "I wrote as I did so that when I came I should not be distressed by those who ought to make me rejoice ... For I wrote you out of great distress and anguish of heart and with many tears ..."
2Co2:9 "The reason I wrote you was to see if you would stand the test and be obedient in everything."
2Co7:8 "Even if I caused you sorrow by my letter, I do not regret it. Though I did regret it -- I see that my letter hurt you, but only for a little while--"
The letter in question is undoubtebly '2bCorinthians':
2Co12:21 "I am afraid that when I come again ... I will be grieved over many who have sinned earlier ..."
2Co13:5-6 "Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you-- unless, of course, you fail the test? And I trust that you will discover that we have not failed the test." <<
Cordially, Bernard
>> The Corinthians letters
"... the letters we call 1 and 2 Corinthians formed part of a larger collection that originally consisted of several letters... We are left with the impression that the extant letters reflect an editing and combining of writings, compiled as the community processed and integrated the words of the apostle"
The Catholic study bible, second edition, page 450
3.1 The 1Corinthians letter is a combination of three letters by Paul:
'1aCorinthians' (written early 53): 1:10-4:21
'1bCorinthians' (written later in 53): 9:1-27
'1cCorinthians' (written early 55): the rest (except 1:4-9, 11:23-28, 14:33b-35, 15:3-11, 15:23-28 & 15:56 added later. See included explanations)
Why is '1Corinthians' made up of three different letters?
a) Different travel plans:
'1aCorinthians' --> 1Co4:17-19 "... but I will come to you very soon ..."; "... I am sending to you Timothy, ..."
'1cCorinthians' --> 1Co16:5-11 "After I go through Macedonia , I will come to you ... But I will stay on at Ephesus until Pentecost, ..." ; "... if Timothy comes, ..."
b) Different relationship between Paul and the Christians of Corinth:
Paul is partly rejected in '1aCorinthians':
1Co1:11b-12 "... there are quarrels among you. What I mean is this: One of you says, "I follow Paul"; another, "I follow Apollos"; another, "I follow Cephas"; still another, "I follow Christ.""
and also in '1bCorinthians':
1Co9:1b-2a "... Am I not an apostle? Have I not seen Jesus our Lord? Are you not the result of my work in the Lord? Even though I may not be an apostle to others, surely I am to you! ..."
However, he appears fully accepted in '1cCorinthians':
1Co16:10-11b "If Timothy comes, see to it that he has nothing to fear while he is with you, for he is carrying on the work of the Lord, just as I am. No one, then, should refuse to accept him ..."
totally in control, very confident, feeling free to ramble & reveal his inner thoughts and dealing as a bishop would towards his flock. For example, Paul is judging a sinner (as God would!):
1Co5:3b-5a "... And I have already passed judgment on the one who did this, just as if I were present. When you are assembled in the name of our Lord Jesus and I am with you in spirit , and the power of our Lord Jesus is present, hand this man over to Satan ..."
and putting himself as equal of the "Lord" in issuing commands:
1Co7:10,12 "To the married I give this command (not I, but the Lord): A wife must not separate from her husband. ... To the rest I say this (I, not the Lord): If any brother has a wife who is not a believer and she is willing to live with him, he must not divorce her."
c) Insertion:
'1bCorinthians' (all about Paul's problems) is evidently an insertion in a passage where Paul is rambling about Christian food, idolatry and sexual immorality (1Co5:1-8:13,10:1-11:1).
1Co8:11-13,10:1-3 "And because of your knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died? But when you thus sin against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, you sin against Christ. Therefore, if food makes my brother stumble, I will never again eat meat, lest I make my brother stumble. [1bCorinthians inserted here]
Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, all ate the same spiritual food,"
3.2 The 2Corinthians letter is also a combination of three letters by Paul:
'2aCorinthians' (written late spring 55): 2:14-7:4 (except 5:10,6:14-7:1 added later. See included explanations)
'2bCorinthians' (written late summer 55): 10:1-13:10
'2cCorinthians' (written late 56): the rest (except 1:1-2,13:11-14 added later)
Why is '2Corinthians' made up of three different letters?
a) Insertion:
'2aCorinthians' is obviously an insertion in a passage dealing with Paul going to Macedonia to meet Titus.
2Co2:12-13,7:5-6 "Now when I went to Troas to preach the gospel of Christ and found that the Lord had opened a door for me, I still had no peace of mind, because I did not find my brother Titus there. So I said good-by to them and went on to Macedonia. [2aCorinthians inserted here] For when we came into Macedonia, this body of ours had no rest, but we were harassed at every turn--conflicts on the outside, fears within. But God, who comforts the downcast, comforted us by the coming of Titus, and not only by his coming but also by the comfort you had given him."
Note: '2aCorinthians' was written from the point of view of Paul and his helpers, using "we", "us" & "ours". The Christian "editor" likely changed the "I", "me" & "mine" in the three verses after the insertion. Afterwards, things become more normal:
2Co7:7-8 "... us ... me ... me ... my ... I ... my ... I ... I ... I ... my ..."
b) Different relationship between Paul and the Christians of Corinth:
Almost fully rejected in '2aCorinthians':
2Co6:12-13 "We have spoken freely to you, Corinthians, and opened wide our hearts to you. We are not withholding our affection from you, but you are withholding yours from us. As a fair exchange --I speak as to my children-- open wide your hearts also."
2Co7:2-3 "Make room for us in your hearts. We have wronged no one, we have corrupted no one, we have exploited no one. I do not say this to condemn you; I have said before that you have such a place in our hearts that we would live or die with you."
and also in '2bCorinthians':
2Co12:20b-21a "... I fear that there may be quarreling, jealousy, outbursts of anger, factions, slander, gossip, arrogance and disorder. I am afraid that when I come again my God will humble me before you ..."
2Co13:1-3a "This will be my third visit to you. "Every matter must be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses." I already gave you a warning when I was with you the second time. I now repeat it while absent: On my return I will not spare those who sinned earlier or any of the others, since you are demanding proof that Christ is speaking through me."
But Paul is fully accepted (but cautious) in '2cCorinthians':
2Co1:21-22 "Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come."
2Co7:7 "... He [Titus] told us about your longing for me, your deep sorrow, your ardent concern for me, so that my joy was greater than ever."
To the same Christians, Paul is imploring for reconciliation in '2aCorinthians' (2Co5:19-20), he is most angry in '2bCorinthians' (2Co11:13-15) but very forgiving (2Co2:5-11,7:8-9) & friendly in '2cCorinthians':
2Co7:16 "I am glad I can have complete confidence in you [the Christians of Corinth]."
c) The mentioned other letter:
In '2cCorinthians', Paul keeps referring to a letter he wrote earlier:
2Co2:3-4a "I wrote as I did so that when I came I should not be distressed by those who ought to make me rejoice ... For I wrote you out of great distress and anguish of heart and with many tears ..."
2Co2:9 "The reason I wrote you was to see if you would stand the test and be obedient in everything."
2Co7:8 "Even if I caused you sorrow by my letter, I do not regret it. Though I did regret it -- I see that my letter hurt you, but only for a little while--"
The letter in question is undoubtebly '2bCorinthians':
2Co12:21 "I am afraid that when I come again ... I will be grieved over many who have sinned earlier ..."
2Co13:5-6 "Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you-- unless, of course, you fail the test? And I trust that you will discover that we have not failed the test." <<
Cordially, Bernard
I believe freedom of expression should not be curtailed
Re: Deconstructed Letters of Paulos
Excellent Irish, thank you for bringing that up. It's a very interesting conversation.Irish1975 wrote: ↑Mon Jun 17, 2019 8:39 am We recently had an extended debate about both the integrity and the authenticity of Romans 15 (and to a lesser extent 16).
Re: Deconstructed Letters of Paulos
Hi Bernard,Bernard Muller wrote: ↑Mon Jun 17, 2019 7:06 pm From http://historical-jesus.info/appp.html
>> The Corinthians letters
"... the letters we call 1 and 2 Corinthians formed part of a larger collection that originally consisted of several letters... We are left with the impression that the extant letters reflect an editing and combining of writings, compiled as the community processed and integrated the words of the apostle"
The Catholic study bible, second edition, page 450
3.1 The 1Corinthians letter is a combination of three letters by Paul:
'1aCorinthians' (written early 53): 1:10-4:21
'1bCorinthians' (written later in 53): 9:1-27
'1cCorinthians' (written early 55): the rest (except 1:4-9, 11:23-28, 14:33b-35, 15:3-11, 15:23-28 & 15:56 added later. See included explanations)
Why is '1Corinthians' made up of three different letters?
a) Different travel plans:
'1aCorinthians' --> 1Co4:17-19 "... but I will come to you very soon ..."; "... I am sending to you Timothy, ..."
'1cCorinthians' --> 1Co16:5-11 "After I go through Macedonia , I will come to you ... But I will stay on at Ephesus until Pentecost, ..." ; "... if Timothy comes, ..."
b) Different relationship between Paul and the Christians of Corinth:
Paul is partly rejected in '1aCorinthians':
1Co1:11b-12 "... there are quarrels among you. What I mean is this: One of you says, "I follow Paul"; another, "I follow Apollos"; another, "I follow Cephas"; still another, "I follow Christ.""
and also in '1bCorinthians':
1Co9:1b-2a "... Am I not an apostle? Have I not seen Jesus our Lord? Are you not the result of my work in the Lord? Even though I may not be an apostle to others, surely I am to you! ..."
However, he appears fully accepted in '1cCorinthians':
1Co16:10-11b "If Timothy comes, see to it that he has nothing to fear while he is with you, for he is carrying on the work of the Lord, just as I am. No one, then, should refuse to accept him ..."
totally in control, very confident, feeling free to ramble & reveal his inner thoughts and dealing as a bishop would towards his flock. For example, Paul is judging a sinner (as God would!):
1Co5:3b-5a "... And I have already passed judgment on the one who did this, just as if I were present. When you are assembled in the name of our Lord Jesus and I am with you in spirit , and the power of our Lord Jesus is present, hand this man over to Satan ..."
and putting himself as equal of the "Lord" in issuing commands:
1Co7:10,12 "To the married I give this command (not I, but the Lord): A wife must not separate from her husband. ... To the rest I say this (I, not the Lord): If any brother has a wife who is not a believer and she is willing to live with him, he must not divorce her."
c) Insertion:
'1bCorinthians' (all about Paul's problems) is evidently an insertion in a passage where Paul is rambling about Christian food, idolatry and sexual immorality (1Co5:1-8:13,10:1-11:1).
1Co8:11-13,10:1-3 "And because of your knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died? But when you thus sin against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, you sin against Christ. Therefore, if food makes my brother stumble, I will never again eat meat, lest I make my brother stumble. [1bCorinthians inserted here]
Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, all ate the same spiritual food,"
3.2 The 2Corinthians letter is also a combination of three letters by Paul:
'2aCorinthians' (written late spring 55): 2:14-7:4 (except 5:10,6:14-7:1 added later. See included explanations)
'2bCorinthians' (written late summer 55): 10:1-13:10
'2cCorinthians' (written late 56): the rest (except 1:1-2,13:11-14 added later)
Why is '2Corinthians' made up of three different letters?
a) Insertion:
'2aCorinthians' is obviously an insertion in a passage dealing with Paul going to Macedonia to meet Titus.
2Co2:12-13,7:5-6 "Now when I went to Troas to preach the gospel of Christ and found that the Lord had opened a door for me, I still had no peace of mind, because I did not find my brother Titus there. So I said good-by to them and went on to Macedonia. [2aCorinthians inserted here] For when we came into Macedonia, this body of ours had no rest, but we were harassed at every turn--conflicts on the outside, fears within. But God, who comforts the downcast, comforted us by the coming of Titus, and not only by his coming but also by the comfort you had given him."
Note: '2aCorinthians' was written from the point of view of Paul and his helpers, using "we", "us" & "ours". The Christian "editor" likely changed the "I", "me" & "mine" in the three verses after the insertion. Afterwards, things become more normal:
2Co7:7-8 "... us ... me ... me ... my ... I ... my ... I ... I ... I ... my ..."
b) Different relationship between Paul and the Christians of Corinth:
Almost fully rejected in '2aCorinthians':
2Co6:12-13 "We have spoken freely to you, Corinthians, and opened wide our hearts to you. We are not withholding our affection from you, but you are withholding yours from us. As a fair exchange --I speak as to my children-- open wide your hearts also."
2Co7:2-3 "Make room for us in your hearts. We have wronged no one, we have corrupted no one, we have exploited no one. I do not say this to condemn you; I have said before that you have such a place in our hearts that we would live or die with you."
and also in '2bCorinthians':
2Co12:20b-21a "... I fear that there may be quarreling, jealousy, outbursts of anger, factions, slander, gossip, arrogance and disorder. I am afraid that when I come again my God will humble me before you ..."
2Co13:1-3a "This will be my third visit to you. "Every matter must be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses." I already gave you a warning when I was with you the second time. I now repeat it while absent: On my return I will not spare those who sinned earlier or any of the others, since you are demanding proof that Christ is speaking through me."
But Paul is fully accepted (but cautious) in '2cCorinthians':
2Co1:21-22 "Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come."
2Co7:7 "... He [Titus] told us about your longing for me, your deep sorrow, your ardent concern for me, so that my joy was greater than ever."
To the same Christians, Paul is imploring for reconciliation in '2aCorinthians' (2Co5:19-20), he is most angry in '2bCorinthians' (2Co11:13-15) but very forgiving (2Co2:5-11,7:8-9) & friendly in '2cCorinthians':
2Co7:16 "I am glad I can have complete confidence in you [the Christians of Corinth]."
c) The mentioned other letter:
In '2cCorinthians', Paul keeps referring to a letter he wrote earlier:
2Co2:3-4a "I wrote as I did so that when I came I should not be distressed by those who ought to make me rejoice ... For I wrote you out of great distress and anguish of heart and with many tears ..."
2Co2:9 "The reason I wrote you was to see if you would stand the test and be obedient in everything."
2Co7:8 "Even if I caused you sorrow by my letter, I do not regret it. Though I did regret it -- I see that my letter hurt you, but only for a little while--"
The letter in question is undoubtebly '2bCorinthians':
2Co12:21 "I am afraid that when I come again ... I will be grieved over many who have sinned earlier ..."
2Co13:5-6 "Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you-- unless, of course, you fail the test? And I trust that you will discover that we have not failed the test." <<
Cordially, Bernard
It's encouraging to see that we agree (sort of) on a few points, such as 1 Corinthians 1 - 4:21, (although I see that you feel that 1:4 - 9 were inserted later and apparently 1:1 - 4 is part of what you call 1cCorinthians), and 2 Corinthians 10 - 13 (not sure why you feel that 13:11 - 13 is an interpolation however).
I feel that I could be convinced that 1 Corinthians chapter 9 is a separate letter.
1 Corinthians 5 - 6:11 does really seem to be a letter on it's own though.
1Co11:23 - 28 I also feel is possibly a interpolation, and 14:34 - 35 is without doubt one also (not so sure about 14:33 though). I am on the fence concerning 1Co15:3 - 9 and have no thoughts on 10 -11. Also no thoughts on 1Co15:23 - 28. Nor 15:56.
Yes. Ok, fair enough.Why is '1Corinthians' made up of three different letters?
a) Different travel plans:
'1aCorinthians' --> 1Co4:17-19 "... but I will come to you very soon ..."; "... I am sending to you Timothy, ..."
'1cCorinthians' --> 1Co16:5-11 "After I go through Macedonia , I will come to you ... But I will stay on at Ephesus until Pentecost, ..." ; "... if Timothy comes, ..."
Ok.b) Different relationship between Paul and the Christians of Corinth:
Paul is partly rejected in '1aCorinthians':
1Co1:11b-12 "... there are quarrels among you. What I mean is this: One of you says, "I follow Paul"; another, "I follow Apollos"; another, "I follow Cephas"; still another, "I follow Christ.""
and also in '1bCorinthians':
1Co9:1b-2a "... Am I not an apostle? Have I not seen Jesus our Lord? Are you not the result of my work in the Lord? Even though I may not be an apostle to others, surely I am to you! ..."
However, he appears fully accepted in '1cCorinthians':
1Co16:10-11b "If Timothy comes, see to it that he has nothing to fear while he is with you, for he is carrying on the work of the Lord, just as I am. No one, then, should refuse to accept him ..."
totally in control, very confident, feeling free to ramble & reveal his inner thoughts and dealing as a bishop would towards his flock. For example, Paul is judging a sinner (as God would!):
1Co5:3b-5a "... And I have already passed judgment on the one who did this, just as if I were present. When you are assembled in the name of our Lord Jesus and I am with you in spirit , and the power of our Lord Jesus is present, hand this man over to Satan ..."
and putting himself as equal of the "Lord" in issuing commands:
1Co7:10,12 "To the married I give this command (not I, but the Lord): A wife must not separate from her husband. ... To the rest I say this (I, not the Lord): If any brother has a wife who is not a believer and she is willing to live with him, he must not divorce her."
Not so sure about this though.c) Insertion:
'1bCorinthians' (all about Paul's problems) is evidently an insertion in a passage where Paul is rambling about Christian food, idolatry and sexual immorality (1Co5:1-8:13,10:1-11:1).
1Co8:11-13,10:1-3 "And because of your knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died? But when you thus sin against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, you sin against Christ. Therefore, if food makes my brother stumble, I will never again eat meat, lest I make my brother stumble. [1bCorinthians inserted here]
Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, all ate the same spiritual food,"
I see also that you agree that 2 Corinthians 6:14 - 7:1 is a later addition, and agree with me on 2 Corinthians 2:14 - 7:4. Not so sure about 5:10 though. Also I don't understand why you single out 1:1 - 2 as an interpolation.
Where you see three letters comprising 2 Corinthians I see at least 5 but this gives me some validation that there is something to the idea that these two letters are indeed compilations of smaller letters. I am running out of time right now but will respond further to your deconstruction of 2Co. when I have a chance.
Lane
Re: Deconstructed Letters of Paulos
Update: A * denotes where I and Bernard Miller (mostly) agree.
1: Galatians.
2: 1 Corinthians 1:1-4:21 *
3: 1 Corinthians 5:1-6:11
4: 1 Corinthians 6:12-16:24. With 11:23-28 as a possible interpolation and 14:34-35 as a very probable interpolation.
5: 2 Corinthians 1:1-2:13 and 7:5-16.
6: 2 Corinthians 2:14-6:13 and 7:2-4. With 2 Corinthians 6:14-7:1 as a possible later interpolation. *
7: 2 Corinthians 8:1-24.
8: 2 Corinthians 9:1-15.
9: 2 Corinthians 10-13. *
10: Philippians 1:1-3:1.
11: Philippians 3:2-4:9
12: Philippians 4:10-20 and also 4:21-23
13: Romans 1 and 2:6-16 and 3:21-26 and 5:1-11 and 8 and 12 and 13
14: Romans 2:1-5 and 2:17-29 and 3:1-20 and 3:27-31 and 4 and 5:12-20 and 6, 7, 14
Romans 15?
Romans 16?
Romans 9-11?
16: 1 Thessalonians 2:13-4:2.
17: 1 Thessalonians 1:1-2:12 and 4:3-5:28.
Also, Irish1975 do you have any thoughts on this deconstruction of Romans?
13: Romans 1 and 2:6-16 and 3:21-26 and 5:1-11 and 8 and 12 and 13
14: Romans 2:1-5 and 2:17-29 and 3:1-20 and 3:27-31 and 4 and 5:12-20 and 6, 7, 14
1: Galatians.
2: 1 Corinthians 1:1-4:21 *
3: 1 Corinthians 5:1-6:11
4: 1 Corinthians 6:12-16:24. With 11:23-28 as a possible interpolation and 14:34-35 as a very probable interpolation.
5: 2 Corinthians 1:1-2:13 and 7:5-16.
6: 2 Corinthians 2:14-6:13 and 7:2-4. With 2 Corinthians 6:14-7:1 as a possible later interpolation. *
7: 2 Corinthians 8:1-24.
8: 2 Corinthians 9:1-15.
9: 2 Corinthians 10-13. *
10: Philippians 1:1-3:1.
11: Philippians 3:2-4:9
12: Philippians 4:10-20 and also 4:21-23
13: Romans 1 and 2:6-16 and 3:21-26 and 5:1-11 and 8 and 12 and 13
14: Romans 2:1-5 and 2:17-29 and 3:1-20 and 3:27-31 and 4 and 5:12-20 and 6, 7, 14
Romans 15?
Romans 16?
Romans 9-11?
16: 1 Thessalonians 2:13-4:2.
17: 1 Thessalonians 1:1-2:12 and 4:3-5:28.
Also, Irish1975 do you have any thoughts on this deconstruction of Romans?
13: Romans 1 and 2:6-16 and 3:21-26 and 5:1-11 and 8 and 12 and 13
14: Romans 2:1-5 and 2:17-29 and 3:1-20 and 3:27-31 and 4 and 5:12-20 and 6, 7, 14
Last edited by Jax on Tue Jun 18, 2019 2:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
- Ben C. Smith
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Re: Deconstructed Letters of Paulos
Anyone desiring manuscript support for this one has to be content with verses 34-35 only; those are the ones which have been transposed in some manuscripts:
1 Corinthians 14.34-35: 31 For you can all prophesy one by one, so that all may learn and all may be exhorted; 32 and the spirits of prophets are subject to prophets; 33 for God is not a God of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints. 34 The women are to keep silent in the churches; for they are not permitted to speak, but are to subject themselves, just as the Law also says. 35 If they desire to learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is improper for a woman to speak in church. 36 Was it from you that the word of God first went forth? Or has it come to you only? 37 If anyone thinks he is a prophet or spiritual, let him recognize that the things which I write to you are the Lord’s commandment. 38 But if anyone does not recognize this, he is not recognized.
Here is Boernerianus, for example:
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Re: Deconstructed Letters of Paulos
I'm cool with that.Ben C. Smith wrote: ↑Tue Jun 18, 2019 1:47 pmAnyone desiring manuscript support for this one has to be content with verses 34-35 only; those are the ones which have been transposed in some manuscripts:
1 Corinthians 14.34-35: 31 For you can all prophesy one by one, so that all may learn and all may be exhorted; 32 and the spirits of prophets are subject to prophets; 33 for God is not a God of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints. 34 The women are to keep silent in the churches; for they are not permitted to speak, but are to subject themselves, just as the Law also says. 35 If they desire to learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is improper for a woman to speak in church. 36 Was it from you that the word of God first went forth? Or has it come to you only? 37 If anyone thinks he is a prophet or spiritual, let him recognize that the things which I write to you are the Lord’s commandment. 38 But if anyone does not recognize this, he is not recognized.
Here is Boernerianus, for example:
boernerianus1corinthians14.jpg
Edit: have added it to my list.
Re: Deconstructed Letters of Paulos
^ What do you think Ben? Are we on to something or are we just off on a flight of fantasy?
Edit: Please don't mistake my brevity for a lack of interest in this subject. I am very interested in your views on this.
If you have posted on this subject before some links would be very welcome.
Lane
Edit: Please don't mistake my brevity for a lack of interest in this subject. I am very interested in your views on this.
If you have posted on this subject before some links would be very welcome.
Lane
- Ben C. Smith
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- Contact:
Re: Deconstructed Letters of Paulos
No, I think there is something to the composite letter hypothesis.Jax wrote: ↑Tue Jun 18, 2019 2:21 pm ^ What do you think Ben? Are we on to something or are we just off on a flight of fantasy?
Edit: Please don't mistake my brevity for a lack of interest in this subject. I am very interested in your views on this.
If you have posted on this subject before some links would be very welcome.
Here are some threads I have either inaugurated or contributed to on this forum about the epistles of Paul:
Codex Boernerianus and Romans 1.1b-5a.
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2494
My thoughts on 1 Corinthians 11.23-28 (for Kunigunde).
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2650
A thread by spin about 1 Corinthians 15.3-11.
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2456
1 Corinthians 2.6-16 as an interpolation.
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3842
Did Paul sometimes interpolate his own epistles?
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3799
New chapter on the composite nature of 2 Corinthians.
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2225
List of editions of the Pauline epistles.
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=4561&p=92095#p92095
Parallels between the Didache and Paul.
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2636
Jesus and Christ in the Pauline epistles.
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2604&p=58432#p58432
The Pauline equation of Yahweh and Jesus.
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2588&start=10#p71703
Crucifixion of a slave?
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1718
Romans 10.6-7, Jonah, and Moses.
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3874
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2494
My thoughts on 1 Corinthians 11.23-28 (for Kunigunde).
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2650
A thread by spin about 1 Corinthians 15.3-11.
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2456
1 Corinthians 2.6-16 as an interpolation.
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3842
Did Paul sometimes interpolate his own epistles?
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3799
New chapter on the composite nature of 2 Corinthians.
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2225
List of editions of the Pauline epistles.
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=4561&p=92095#p92095
Parallels between the Didache and Paul.
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2636
Jesus and Christ in the Pauline epistles.
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2604&p=58432#p58432
The Pauline equation of Yahweh and Jesus.
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2588&start=10#p71703
Crucifixion of a slave?
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1718
Romans 10.6-7, Jonah, and Moses.
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3874
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Re: Deconstructed Letters of Paulos
Chaching!Ben C. Smith wrote: ↑Tue Jun 18, 2019 5:29 pmNo, I think there is something to the composite letter hypothesis.Jax wrote: ↑Tue Jun 18, 2019 2:21 pm ^ What do you think Ben? Are we on to something or are we just off on a flight of fantasy?
Edit: Please don't mistake my brevity for a lack of interest in this subject. I am very interested in your views on this.
If you have posted on this subject before some links would be very welcome.
Here are some threads I have either inaugurated or contributed to on this forum about the epistles of Paul:
Codex Boernerianus and Romans 1.1b-5a.
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2494
My thoughts on 1 Corinthians 11.23-28 (for Kunigunde).
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2650
A thread by spin about 1 Corinthians 15.3-11.
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2456
1 Corinthians 2.6-16 as an interpolation.
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3842
Did Paul sometimes interpolate his own epistles?
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3799
New chapter on the composite nature of 2 Corinthians.
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2225
List of editions of the Pauline epistles.
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=4561&p=92095#p92095
Parallels between the Didache and Paul.
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2636
Jesus and Christ in the Pauline epistles.
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2604&p=58432#p58432
The Pauline equation of Yahweh and Jesus.
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2588&start=10#p71703
Crucifixion of a slave?
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1718
Romans 10.6-7, Jonah, and Moses.
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3874
Thanks Ben, I never would have found this material by chance.
Looks like I have some reading to do.
- Ben C. Smith
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Re: Deconstructed Letters of Paulos
No problem. Just as an addendum, what I feel are my most important contributions to that thread by spin about 1 Corinthians 15.3-11 are to be found in these posts: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2456#p55042 and viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2456&start=130#p56028.
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