Deconstructed Letters of Paulos

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Jax
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Re: Deconstructed Letters of Paulos

Post by Jax » Wed Jun 19, 2019 12:59 pm

Ben C. Smith wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2019 5:01 am
Jax wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2019 10:30 pm
Thanks Ben, I never would have found this material by chance.

Looks like I have some reading to do. :)
No problem. Just as an addendum, what I feel are my most important contributions to that thread by spin about 1 Corinthians 15.3-11 are to be found in these posts: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2456#p55042 and viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2456&start=130#p56028.
:cheers:

Bernard Muller
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Re: Deconstructed Letters of Paulos

Post by Bernard Muller » Wed Jun 19, 2019 4:02 pm

to Jax,
Thanks for you taking the trouble to study my post.
What follows is further explanations or where to find them.

2 Cor 1:1-2 and 2 Cor 13:11-14 seem to be to have been fabricated when the epistle was combined from three letters. Apparently, none of the intro and conclusion from the three letters were adequate for the (canonical) epistle.

For 1 Corinthians deemed interpolations, please consult http://historical-jesus.info/co1c.html and "find" on: 1cCORINTHIANS: later additions

For 2 Corinthians deemed interpolations, please consult http://historical-jesus.info/co2a.html and "find" on: 2aCORINTHIANS: later addition

There, I go into lot of details into explaining what I consider interpolations.

Actually. I went verse by verse for the Corinthians letters with plenty of comments:

http://historical-jesus.info/co1a.html
http://historical-jesus.info/co1b.html
http://historical-jesus.info/co1c.html

http://historical-jesus.info/co2a.html
http://historical-jesus.info/co2b.html
http://historical-jesus.info/co2c.html

This what I have for Philippians:
'aPhilippians' (written 53-56?, likely 53-54): Php4:10-4:20
'bPhilippians' (written 56, a prison letter): Php1:3-3:1a
'cPhilippians' (written 56-57): Php3:1b-4:9

See details here:
http://historical-jesus.info/phpa.html
http://historical-jesus.info/phpb.html
http://historical-jesus.info/phpc.html (I consider 3:20b as interpolation as also 1:1)

For Romans, I did not study it in depth but I did not see, reading that epistle over & over, any sign it was composed from multiple letters. However Ro 16:25-27 is obviously an interpolation.

For Galatians, 2:7-8 (except "on the contrary") is most likely an interpolation.

For 1 Thessalonians, see the top of the page http://historical-jesus.info/hjes3xx.html for explanation on two interpolations.

Cordially, Bernard
I believe freedom of expression should not be curtailed

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Jax
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Re: Deconstructed Letters of Paulos

Post by Jax » Wed Jun 19, 2019 9:32 pm

Bernard Muller wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2019 4:02 pm
to Jax,
Thanks for you taking the trouble to study my post.
What follows is further explanations or where to find them.

2 Cor 1:1-2 and 2 Cor 13:11-14 seem to be to have been fabricated when the epistle was combined from three letters. Apparently, none of the intro and conclusion from the three letters were adequate for the (canonical) epistle.

For 1 Corinthians deemed interpolations, please consult http://historical-jesus.info/co1c.html and "find" on: 1cCORINTHIANS: later additions

For 2 Corinthians deemed interpolations, please consult http://historical-jesus.info/co2a.html and "find" on: 2aCORINTHIANS: later addition

There, I go into lot of details into explaining what I consider interpolations.

Actually. I went verse by verse for the Corinthians letters with plenty of comments:

http://historical-jesus.info/co1a.html
http://historical-jesus.info/co1b.html
http://historical-jesus.info/co1c.html

http://historical-jesus.info/co2a.html
http://historical-jesus.info/co2b.html
http://historical-jesus.info/co2c.html

This what I have for Philippians:
'aPhilippians' (written 53-56?, likely 53-54): Php4:10-4:20
'bPhilippians' (written 56, a prison letter): Php1:3-3:1a
'cPhilippians' (written 56-57): Php3:1b-4:9

See details here:
http://historical-jesus.info/phpa.html
http://historical-jesus.info/phpb.html
http://historical-jesus.info/phpc.html (I consider 3:20b as interpolation as also 1:1)

For Romans, I did not study it in depth but I did not see, reading that epistle over & over, any sign it was composed from multiple letters. However Ro 16:25-27 is obviously an interpolation.

For Galatians, 2:7-8 (except "on the contrary") is most likely an interpolation.

For 1 Thessalonians, see the top of the page http://historical-jesus.info/hjes3xx.html for explanation on two interpolations.

Cordially, Bernard
Thank you Bernard, I will look this material over and get back to you.

Lane :cheers:

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Kapyong
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Re: Deconstructed Letters of Paulos

Post by Kapyong » Thu Jun 20, 2019 5:57 am

Gday Jax and everyone :)

Did you see this relevant article by Philip B. Payne from New Testament Studies ?
He calls that little marker doodad a 'distigme-obelos'.

Vaticanus Distigme-obelos Symbols Marking Added Text, Including 1 Corinthians 14.34–5

Abstract :
"The two-dot-plus-bar ‘distigme-obelos’ symbols in Vaticanus signal added text. Five characteristic features distinguish their obeloi from paragraphoi. Like scribe B's LXX obeloi, all eight distigme-obelos symbols mark the location of added text. A gap at the exact location of a widely recognised, multi-word addition follows every distigme-obelos except one with distinctive downward dipping strokes. The Vaticanus Gospels are so early that they have virtually no high stops, a feature older than even 75. Consequently, they contain none of these additions, but the Vaticanus epistles have high stops throughout and contain their one distigme-obelos-marked addition, 1 Cor 14.34–5. Contemporaneous LXX G has corresponding distigmai."

Kapyong

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Ben C. Smith
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Re: Deconstructed Letters of Paulos

Post by Ben C. Smith » Thu Jun 20, 2019 6:39 am

Payne has written quite a bit about 1 Corinthians 14.34-35. At least two of his articles are available online.
ΤΙ ΕΣΤΙΝ ΑΛΗΘΕΙΑ

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Kapyong
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Re: Deconstructed Letters of Paulos

Post by Kapyong » Thu Jun 20, 2019 7:24 am

Gday Ben,

Thanks for those :) I thought it was worth a mention for anyone who may not have seen it, due to it's direct relevance on 1 Cor. 14:34-35. Seems like Payne has looked into that passage in depth.

I just found that distigme-obelos in my copy of 'B' - how thrilling.

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Jax
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Re: Deconstructed Letters of Paulos

Post by Jax » Thu Jun 20, 2019 10:47 am

Update: A * denotes where I and Bernard Miller (mostly) agree.

1: Galatians.

2: 1 Corinthians 1:1-4:21 *
3: 1 Corinthians 5:1-6:11
4: 1 Corinthians 6:12-16:24. With 11:23-28 as a possible interpolation and 14:34-35 as a very probable interpolation.

5: 2 Corinthians 1:1-2:13 and 7:5-16.
6: 2 Corinthians 2:14-6:13 and 7:2-4. With 2 Corinthians 6:14-7:1 as a possible later interpolation. *
7: 2 Corinthians 8:1-24.
8: 2 Corinthians 9:1-15.
9: 2 Corinthians 10-13. *

10: Philippians 1:1-3:1.
11: Philippians 3:2-4:9
12: Philippians 4:10-20 and also 4:21-23 *

13: Romans 1 and 2:6-16 and 3:21-26 and 5:1-11 and 8 and 12 and 13
14: Romans 2:1-5 and 2:17-29 and 3:1-20 and 3:27-31 and 4 and 5:12-20 and 6, 7, 14

Romans 15?

Romans 16?

Romans 9-11?

16: 1 Thessalonians 2:13-4:2.
17: 1 Thessalonians 1:1-2:12 and 4:3-5:28.

Four matches so far. :cheers:

Woo hoo! :)

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Jax
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Re: Deconstructed Letters of Paulos

Post by Jax » Thu Jun 20, 2019 10:52 am

Kapyong wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 7:24 am
Gday Ben,

Thanks for those :) I thought it was worth a mention for anyone who may not have seen it, due to it's direct relevance on 1 Cor. 14:34-35. Seems like Payne has looked into that passage in depth.

I just found that distigme-obelos in my copy of 'B' - how thrilling.
I think that 1Co. 14:34-35 is all but a slam dunk for most critical scholars now days.

Haven't seen you around for a while; good to see you posting.

What do you think of my list?

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Kapyong
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Re: Deconstructed Letters of Paulos

Post by Kapyong » Thu Jun 20, 2019 7:16 pm

Gday Jax,
Hope you're well :)
Jax wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 10:52 am
I think that 1Co. 14:34-35 is all but a slam dunk for most critical scholars now days.
Haven't seen you around for a while; good to see you posting.
What do you think of my list?
Well, I pop in for a gander from time-to-time, but I've mostly moved on to other topics of ancient and modern history.

Also - my brain is getting tired, and hanging around with the smart kids only highlights that :)

Your work here looks good, but the specifics are beyond me.

Kapyong

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Jax
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Re: Deconstructed Letters of Paulos

Post by Jax » Fri Jun 21, 2019 3:05 am

Kapyong wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 7:16 pm
Gday Jax,
Hope you're well :)
Jax wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 10:52 am
I think that 1Co. 14:34-35 is all but a slam dunk for most critical scholars now days.
Haven't seen you around for a while; good to see you posting.
What do you think of my list?
Well, I pop in for a gander from time-to-time, but I've mostly moved on to other topics of ancient and modern history.

Also - my brain is getting tired, and hanging around with the smart kids only highlights that :)

Your work here looks good, but the specifics are beyond me.

Kapyong
Well, I'm glad that you're still staying with it. :cheers:

The information in the list isn't actually mine but rather the opinions of various scholars such as Bart Ehrman and David Trobish etc. I have simply compiled the information from various sources.

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