Who existed ? When ? Where ?

[Bernard Muller]

to Jax,

Aside from the Gospel writers and Josephus are there any other sources for JTB?

From http://historical-jesus.info/hjes1x.html

Note: what follows are extracts from "Encyclopeadia of the Orient: Mandeans".

"The only surviving Gnostic religion, now with not more than 20,000 adherents, living in southern Iraq and south-western Iran. They are often called the Christians of Saint John, as he is held as a very sacred person, but not indispensable, in their theology. Their name is Aramaic for 'knowledge', i.e. a translation from the Greek 'gnosis'.

TEACHING and PRACTICE
John the Baptist is central in their teaching, as a representative for their faith. Jesus is also central, but he plays a totally different role than in religions like Christianity and Islam, and is a false prophet, almost depicted as evil.
[this appraisal of Jesus probably dates from the early years when communities of latter followers of John the Baptist were competing against the early (Jesus based) Christianity]
` ... Baptism is central to the cult of Mandeans, and the Mandean sanctuary, Mandi is a very simple, and small, house with slanting roof. In front of this a pool, connected to a nearby river, is placed. This one, called 'Jordan', is used for baptism. The whole area is surrounded by a high fence or a wall. Baptisms are performed on Sundays, and every believer pass through this several times every year. Mandean baptism can be compared to the Christian communion, and the Muslim prayer, salât. ...
The ethics of Mandeans are not all too different from Jewish ethics, and the same rules applied to all. Monogamy, dietary laws, ritual slaughtering, alms-giving are central acts. Death is the day of deliverance, the soul leaves the body, and starts on a dangerous journey to the realms of light. It is only Mandeans and non-sinners who manages to pass the whole journey — everyone else ends in hell. This hell is not everlasting, at the end of the world, a judgement is made on who will be wiped out for ever, and who will rise to the realms of light.

ORIGINS and HISTORY
... The Mandean religion could be pre-Christian, or it could date to 1st or 2nd century AD. It could actually be John the Baptist who founded the sect, or they could be a continuation of the Jewish sect that John the Baptist belonged to (guessed to be the Esseneans). Elements of the languages indicate that the community is of Jewish origin. One of the texts of the Mandeans tell about a flight of a group called 'Nasoreans', from areas that probably were in today's Jordan, to the Mesopotamian region, in the times of the Jewish wars following the destruction of Jerusalem in year 70 AD. The Mandeans appears first to have gained a strong position in Babylon, ..."

Complete text on Encyclopaedia of the Orient: Mandeans

Cordially, Bernard

[Secret Alias]

But this John the Baptist lived to see the destruction of Jerusalem

[MrMacSon]

From a Westar Acts Seminar release in 2013:

"This is not to say that Acts is totally unhistorical, but to observe that it is less helpful in the historical reconstruction of Christian beginnings than previously assumed."

I did an internet search for ""that Acts is totally unhistorical" and that whole phrase that you quote^ is on the same page I cited -

https://www.westarinstitute.org/project ... -apostles/


The only 2013 Westar webpage I could find was http://www.westarinstitute.org/blog/whe ... t-century/ which says, among other things, -

The Acts Seminar concluded that Acts was written around 115 CE and used literary models like Homer for inspiration, even exact words and phrases from popular stories...

The Acts Seminar demonstrated that the author of Acts used a collection of Paul’s letters to create a believable itinerary for Paul’s journeys throughout the Mediterranean. Previously, scholars saw the correspondence between Paul’s letters and Acts as proof that they were written in the same era. In fact, the reverse is true. Acts used Paul’s letters as a source while shying away from Pauline theology ...

http://www.westarinstitute.org/blog/whe ... t-century/

[Bernard Muller]

to Secret Alias,

But this John the Baptist lived to see the destruction of Jerusalem

And how did you deduct that?

Cordially, Bernard

[Secret Alias]

It just says that in the John Book.

[Secret Alias]

Why do you assume that they understood he lived at the same time as the Christian John the Baptist?

[Secret Alias]

If you read the Haran Gawaita it is apparent the temple falls during John's lifetime:

Then Yahia-Yuhana took the jordan and the medicine Water (of Life)... and he cleansed lepers, opened (the eyes of) the blind and lifted the broken (maimed) to walk on their feet ... by the strength of the lofty King of Light - praised be his Name! - and gave speech and hearing to all who sought (him). And he was called in the world " envoy of the High King of Light " - praised be his Name! - (even) at the (very) abode and building of Ruha and Adonai and her seven sons.

And he taught disciples and proclaimed the Call of the Life in the fallen House (Temple?). Forty-two years (he dwelt) therein, and then his Transplanter looked upon him and he arose with his Transplanter, praised be his name! ---and a time arrived, sixty years after Yahia-Yuhana had departed the body ... the Jews, just as their former strength (returned?) to Ruha and Adonai, who became arrogant... Hence, after sixty years, Ruha and Adonai planned to erect... the fallen House (Temple?) and spoke to Moses the prophet and the children of Israel who had built the House (Temple)... Then they raised an idle cry against the tribes of Anus'-'Uthra, the Head of the Age, and shed their blood so that not a man of the disciples and Nasoraeans were left

It speaks of efforts of the Jewish god and his wife to try and resurrect the temple presumably culminating in the Bar Kochba revolt sixty years after John died in the original destruction of 70 CE.

[Bernard Muller]

to MrMacSon,
You forgot to put "This is not to say that" in front of "Acts is totally unhistorical", which obviously changes the meaning to "This is to say that Acts is not totally unhistorical".
This is confirmed by what comes next in the statement:

but to observe that it is less helpful in the historical reconstruction of Christian beginnings than previously assumed."

Still helpful in the historical reconstruction of Christian beginnings!
BTW, I agree with all that.

Cordially, Bernard

[Secret Alias]

I am not sure that the Mandaeans have an independent remembrance of John the Baptist. It seems to me that they adapted things said about Jesus and the existence of a John the Baptist to create some sort of relationship between their tradition and John the Baptist. Too many of the things said about John resemble Jesus. Similarly the Samaritans mention John in their chronicles but again it just seems they stole things they read about from Christian sources. No independent evidence in either.

[Bernard Muller]

to Secret Alias,

It just says that in the John Book.

What is that John Book?

Then Yahia-Yuhana took the jordan and the medicine Water (of Life)... and he cleansed lepers, opened (the eyes of) the blind and lifted the broken (maimed) to walk on their feet ... by the strength of the lofty King of Light - praised be his Name! - and gave speech and hearing to all who sought (him). And he was called in the world " envoy of the High King of Light " - praised be his Name! - (even) at the (very) abode and building of Ruha and Adonai and her seven sons.

And he taught disciples and proclaimed the Call of the Life in the fallen House (Temple?). Forty-two years (he dwelt) therein, and then his Transplanter looked upon him and he arose with his Transplanter, praised be his name! ---and a time arrived, sixty years after Yahia-Yuhana had departed the body ... the Jews, just as their former strength (returned?) to Ruha and Adonai, who became arrogant... Hence, after sixty years, Ruha and Adonai planned to erect... the fallen House (Temple?) and spoke to Moses the prophet and the children of Israel who had built the House (Temple)... Then they raised an idle cry against the tribes of Anus'-'Uthra, the Head of the Age, and shed their blood so that not a man of the disciples and Nasoraeans were left

It speaks of efforts of the Jewish god and his wife to try and resurrect the temple presumably culminating in the Bar Kochba revolt sixty years after John died in the original destruction of 70 CE.

Clear as mud. Do you think that Yahia-Yuhana is John the Baptist? Where is "John" in all that?

Why do you assume that they understood he lived at the same time as the Christian John the Baptist?

The reference texts from the Encyclopaedia of the Orient do not say that, but certainly the Mandeans believed in the past existence of John the Baptist (and the one of Jesus). And that's the point I wanted to make.

Cordially, Bernard