Who existed ? When ? Where ?

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
Bernard Muller
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Re: Who existed ? When ? Where ?

Post by Bernard Muller »

to MrMacSon,
What evidence, Bernard? The fact some aspects reflect events or people recorded in other texts? Such as the texts of Josephus? and others?
1) Acts says that Paul was in Corinth when Gallio was proconsul of Achaia (Ac18:12) from the summer of 51 and for a period of less than one year. (Gallio not in Josephus' works)

2) Paul in 2 Corinthians named Aretas as a king. The last king called Aretas died in 40 CE.
About Aretas (from http://historical-jesus.info/co2b.html:
[part of 32-33 (more so "of Aretas the king") or the whole is contested as interpolation because there is no external evidence that Damascus came under Aretas' rule at that time. However, it is not necessarily meant here this ethnarch had control of the city. Rather, he may just have been the representative of Nabataean residents and, at the same time, ambassador for Aretas IV (9-40 C.E.). As such, he could hire henchmen in order to watch the few city gates and search for Paul, for the purpose of bringing him to trial.
a) Damascus was a center of trade by caravans and immediately North of the territory held by the Nabataean Arabs. Furthermore, in the past, Damascus had been part of the Nabataean kingdom. Therefore the presence of a Nabataean minority in Damascus is plausible.
b) According to Josephus (Ant., XIX, V, 2-3), the Jews of Alexandria (Egypt) were represented by an ethnarch and Claudius extended the practice to all cities with Diaspora Jews. Therefore it is very plausible other significant national minorities in cities would also have their own ethnarch]
3) Paul stated in his epistles he went to Jerusalem, or planning to go there (Galatians, Romans). Jerusalem was fully destroyed in 70 CE.

4) Paul met James, the brother of Jesus (Galatians). Josephus wrote in his Antiquities that James was executed (around 62 CE).

5) Paul wrote in Romans 13:11-12a "And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.
The night is far spent, the day is at hand"

The author was not aware those Christians of Rome would be massacred by Nero (64 CE) as reported by Tacitus and Suetonius.

6) Paul wrote in Galatians Gal 4:25 "For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children."
The author was not aware Jerusalem would be destroyed in 70 CE. If he was, he would have written the verse differently.

Of course, most, maybe all of these points have been attacked by mythicists. If you think the Pauline epistles such as 1-2 Corinthians, Galatians & Romans where written by somebody other than Paul in the 2nd century, then supply solid evidence.
That could just mean the Pauline texts, and Acts, were written after the availability of the Josephus (and other such) texts and borrowed from them.
Another possibility? Don't we have enough of them?
According to my study, the author of Acts knew about Josephus' Wars but not his Antiquities: http://historical-jesus.info/58.html

Cordially, Bernard
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Bernard Muller
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Re: Who existed ? When ? Where ?

Post by Bernard Muller »

to Kapyong,
Internal evidence ?
You mean - the story is set in the first C.
NO, it is not because of that.

I wrote earlier on this thread:
Regarding the gospels, the internal evidence put the synoptic gospels & Acts well into the first century CE:
Dating of gMark: http://historical-jesus.info/41.html
Dating of gMatthew: http://historical-jesus.info/57.html
Dating of gLuke & gJohn: http://historical-jesus.info/62.html
Dating of Acts: http://historical-jesus.info/63.html
And there are 1st century external evidence for these gospels & Acts. See http://historical-jesus.info/gospels.html
Of course, it is not as abundant as for the ones in the 2nd century, but everything fit and can be justified.
Not too long ago, you accepted my dating. Now you are running away to the 2nd century because of possibilities and arguments from silence.

Cordially, Bernard
I believe freedom of expression should not be curtailed
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Jax
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Re: Who existed ? When ? Where ?

Post by Jax »

Kapyong wrote: Sun Sep 24, 2017 4:27 pm Gday :)
Kapyong wrote: Sun Sep 24, 2017 3:26 pm Paul. 98%
Paul wrote letters mid 1st century - from primary evidence, although corrupt. Various cities around the Eastern Mediterranean.
neilgodfrey wrote: Sun Sep 24, 2017 3:51 pm Which Paul?
The person who wrote the Big Seven, who we call 'Paul'.


Kapyong
Gday Kapyong, Greetings from the other forum. :)

I used to assume that Paul had written seven authentic letters: 1 Corinthians, 2 Corinthians, Galatians, 1 Thessalonians, Philippians, Romans and Philemon. But further research on this subject has convinced me that Philemon is rather part of the pseudepigraphy of Ephesians and Colossians.

I don't have my sources at hand but will be happy to supply them to you if you, or anyone here, would like them.

Cheers!

Jax
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Ben C. Smith
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Re: Who existed ? When ? Where ?

Post by Ben C. Smith »

Jax wrote: Tue Sep 26, 2017 3:31 pmI used to assume that Paul had written seven authentic letters: 1 Corinthians, 2 Corinthians, Galatians, 1 Thessalonians, Philippians, Romans and Philemon. But further research on this subject has convinced me that Philemon is rather part of the pseudepigraphy of Ephesians and Colossians.

I don't have my sources at hand but will be happy to supply them to you if you, or anyone here, would like them.
I would be interested in an argument against the authenticity of Philemon. Does it have something to do with the letter being a possible letter of recommendation for a certain bishop named Onesimus?
ΤΙ ΕΣΤΙΝ ΑΛΗΘΕΙΑ
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Jax
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Re: Who existed ? When ? Where ?

Post by Jax »

Kapyong wrote: Mon Sep 25, 2017 2:01 am Gday,
Paul the Uncertain wrote: Mon Sep 25, 2017 12:07 am Just as a worked example, what do you estimate about John the Baptist?

I reckon the best evidence for him is secondary (Josephus Antiquities, their lives don't overlap), and the rest of the evidence coincides with the Jesus corpus (both men are mentioned in the same four books which focus on ostensibly earthly events, and both are depicted in Acts as having had admirers who survived them). Arguably John also gets a boost from Paul. Paul doesn't mention him, but John's existence as Josephus described him is a candidate explanation for why Paul practiced baptism.
I am increasingly realising why scholars/historians do not pin their conclusions down to percentages. I should just stick with relatively loose English words and say that John the Baptist probably existed - due to the lack of primary evidence.

But being stuck to this tar baby now, I'll say it's a 66% chance that JtB was historical.

Kapyong
Aside from the Gospel writers and Josephus are there any other sources for JTB?

If the other Gospel writers got their reference of John from 'Mark' and 'Mark' isn't an actual witness of the events that he is writing about then where did he get his information from? Josephus?
If so, then can he be writing before Antiquities of the Jews in the mid 90's?
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MrMacSon
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Re: Who existed ? When ? Where ?

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Bernard Muller wrote: Tue Sep 26, 2017 3:16 pm to MrMacSon,
What evidence, Bernard? The fact some aspects reflect events or people recorded in other texts? Such as the texts of Josephus? and others?
1) Acts says Paul was in Corinth when Gallio was proconsul of Achaia (Acts 18:12) from the summer of 51 & for a period of less than one year.

2) Paul in 2 Corinthians named Aretas as a king. The last king called Aretas died in 40 CE.
The veracity of Gallio and Aretas does not prove Paul. Gallio and Aretas may be being used to anchor narratives about Paul in that period.

Bernard Muller wrote: Tue Sep 26, 2017 3:16 pm 3) Paul stated in his epistles he went to Jerusalem, or planning to go there (Galatians, Romans). Jerusalem was fully destroyed in 70 CE.
Jerusalem was not destroyed in 70 CE. Only the Temple was. Many people lived in and around Jerusalem until the 2nd Roman-Jewish War.

Sure, the Sanhedrin was relocated to Yavne, but it is said Pharisees stayed and became dominant.

There had have to still be Jews in and around Jerusalem to revolt there in 115 CE and, of course, for the Bar Kokhba revolt in 132 CE !

.
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Kapyong
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Re: Who existed ? When ? Where ?

Post by Kapyong »

Gday,
Bernard Muller wrote: Tue Sep 26, 2017 3:28 pm Not too long ago, you accepted my dating. Now you are running away to the 2nd century because of possibilities and arguments from silence.
Cordially, Bernard
Running away ?

Actually, I have changed my mind about the level of certainty of these documents. I haven't fixed on the 2nd C. but simply realised it should not be rejected, but considered as a possibility.

Yes, my confidence in your dating (and all similar approaches) has dropped.
My 'agenda' is to learn and find what truth I can - about ancient history, and my own errors and biases too.

Finding out that I was wrong about something is a positive learning experience :
every 'whoops, I got that wrong' means 'ah, now I have better knowledge'.
Being shown I was wrong by the smart guys is a gift of better knowledge, one of the rewards of coming here.

When was the last time you changed your mind Bernard ?


Kapyong
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Jax
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Re: Who existed ? When ? Where ?

Post by Jax »

Kapyong wrote: Mon Sep 25, 2017 2:08 am Gday maryhelena,
maryhelena wrote: Mon Sep 25, 2017 12:56 amIt is by stepping outside the story and allowing evidence based history to shine a light upon the story - rather than hoping ones interpretation of the story will shine light upon history - that has the potential to move along the search for early christian origins.
Thanks, glad you agree :)

So do you agree that these persons named above are supported with evidence based history ?
That they represent the most solid layer of our history of Christian origins ?

What do you think about whether we have writings from a mid-first C writer called 'Paul' ?

Kapyong
As this thread is titled "Who existed ? When ? Where ?" I ask, aside from the narrative (completely dismissed by modern scholars) in Acts what makes you think that Paul, or as he calls himself, Paulos, was writing in the mid 1st century?
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Kapyong
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Re: Who existed ? When ? Where ?

Post by Kapyong »

Gday Jax :)
Jax wrote: Tue Sep 26, 2017 3:31 pm Gday Kapyong, Greetings from the other forum. :)
Welcome to the forum !
Better discussion here :)


Kapyong
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MrMacSon
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Re: Who existed ? When ? Where ?

Post by MrMacSon »

Bernard Muller wrote: Tue Sep 26, 2017 3:16 pm 3) Paul stated in his epistles he went to Jerusalem, or planning to go there (Galatians, Romans). Jerusalem was fully destroyed in 70 CE.
MrMacSon wrote: Tue Sep 26, 2017 3:54 pm
Jerusalem was not destroyed in 70 CE. Only the Temple was. Many people lived in and around Jerusalem until the 2nd Roman-Jewish War.

Sure, the Sanhedrin was relocated to Yavne, but it is said Pharisees stayed and became dominant.

There had have to still be Jews in and around Jerusalem to revolt there in 115 CE and, of course, for the Bar Kokhba revolt in 132 CE !

.
"The Jews at Masada held out for three more years in their lofty stronghold. Finally, [they succumbed] under the command of Flavius Silva [and] the Legio X Fratensis (10th Legion) ...

"That circle of scholars [remaining in Jerusalem] evolved into an academy that redefined Judaism in the absence of a Temple. The rabbis designated the 24 books that they regarded as sacred Scripture. Prayer replaced Temple sacrifice, and worship in the synagogue and study of the Torah became the central characteristics of the Jewish faith. In so doing, the scholars re-established Judaism’s original form as a faith of the book, endowing it with a mobility that would become essential to the religion’s survival over the centuries to come."

http://www.historynet.com/first-jewish-roman-war.htm
.

and, interestingly, similar to the event with Paul in Acts 9:25 -

.
" .. Early in the siege of Jerusalem, Rabbi Johanan ben Zakkai had some of his pupils smuggle him out of the city in a casket. The Romans took him prisoner and sent him to a detention center at Jamnia (or Jabneh). Nevertheless, he received permission to teach a group of pupils."

http://www.historynet.com/first-jewish-roman-war.htm

Last edited by MrMacSon on Tue Sep 26, 2017 4:12 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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