JoeWallack wrote: ↑Sun Oct 08, 2017 7:17 am
.. Say for example, the Ending of GMark: Irenaeus of Lyons (yes, "Lyons"), is generally cited as the first clear evidence of the LE by both sides.
Apologists inventory Irenaeus here as if it was an accurate
copy equivalent to what was originally written in the 2nd century
1. Yet:
- The extant source is about 700 years after the original.
- Most extants are in a different language (Latin) than the original (Greek).
- Everyone agrees that the extant Latin was not copied from the original Latin and the degree of copying is unknown.
- Everyone agrees that with time and translation citations were moved to orthodox ones.
So, by the criteria
in this Thread [Rule #1 of Historical Reasoning], extant Irenaeus likely fails as meeting the minimum standard for containing primary source material. So should the Skeptic exorcise it as evidence for LE? I don't think so. Just doubt it and give it less weight ...
.
1 Yet, all we have in Irenaeus is hints of disparate parts of the end of 'the LE' of Mark 16 (we have a hint of Mark 16:20 in Justin Martyr's
First Apology, chapter XLV. And apparently Tatian's
Diatessaron has all the LE of Mark; see below).
DCHindley tabulated these in this post -
http://www.earlywritings.com/forum/view ... 356#p75356
and here are the pertinent sections of
Adv Haers -
Mark |
Adv Haers
bk.ch.sec |
ANF vol 1 |
Mark 16:17-18 |
2.20.3 |
388 |
Mark 16:19 |
3.10.5 |
426 |
It is very hard to find Mark 16:17-18 in Adv Haers. 2.20.3, if at all
Mark 16:14-20 (NIV)
14 Later Jesus appeared to the Eleven as they were eating; he rebuked them for their lack of faith and their stubborn refusal to believe those who had seen him after he had risen.
15 He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18 they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well.”
19 After the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, he was taken up into heaven and he sat at the right hand of God. 20 Then the disciples went out and preached everywhere, and the Lord worked with them and confirmed his word by the signs that accompanied it.
Adv Haers. 2.20.3
But, in truth, the passion of Christ was neither similar to the passion of the Æon, nor did it take place in similar circumstances. For the Æon underwent a passion of dissolution and destruction, so that she who suffered was in danger also of being destroyed. But the Lord, our Christ, underwent a valid, and not a merely accidental passion; not only was He Himself not in danger of being destroyed, but He also established fallen man by His own strength, and recalled him to incorruption. The Æon, again, underwent passion while she was seeking after the Father, and was not able to find Him; but the Lord suffered that He might bring those who have wandered from the Father, back to knowledge and to His fellowship. The search into the greatness of the Father became to her a passion leading to destruction; but the Lord, having suffered, and bestowing the knowledge of the Father, conferred on us salvation. Her passion, as they declare, gave origin to a female offspring, weak, infirm, unformed, and ineffective; but His passion gave rise to strength and power. For the Lord, through means of suffering, "
ascending into the lofty place, led captivity captive, gave gifts to men", and conferred on those that believe in Him the power to "
tread upon serpents and scorpions, and on all the power of the enemy", that is, of the leader of apostasy. Our Lord also by His passion destroyed death, and dispersed error, and put an end to corruption, and destroyed ignorance, while He manifested life and revealed truth, and bestowed the gift of incorruption. But their Æon, when she had suffered, established ignorance, and brought forth a substance without shape, out of which all material works have been produced— death, corruption, error, and such like. -
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103220.htm
Adv Haers. 3.10.5
Also, towards the conclusion of his Gospel, Mark says: '
So then, after the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, He was received up into heaven, and sits on the right hand of God'; [Mark 16:19] confirming what had been spoken by the prophet: '
The Lord said to my Lord, Sit on My right hand, until I make Your foes Your footstool' [Ps 110.1]. -
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103310.htm
Irenaeus's 'use' of Mark 16:9 [in
Adv Haers. 3.10.5].. together with Mark 1:2-3, is in fact
the first ever instance of an explicitly named citation from any part of the second Gospel [ie. Mark] in extant patristic literature [the next supposedly being Clement of Alexandria]
Nicholas P. Lunn (2015)
The Original Ending of Mark: A New Case for the Authenticity of Mark 16:9-20; pp. 82-3.
Lack of Attestation by Early Church Fathers. The lack of reference to 16:9–20 by Origen, Tertullian, Cyrian, Cyril of Jerusalem, and others, indicates that they were apparently unacquainted with the longer ending of Mark.
https://www.ibr-bbr.org/files/bbr/bbr18a04_stein.pdf
The witness of Codex Sinaiticus and Codex Vaticanus, Clement, and Origen, and the testimony of both Eusebius and Jerome that the majority of Greek manuscripts they were aware of lacked 16:9–20 is weighty.
23
3.6. One of the strongest arguments that Mark did not originally end at 16:8 involves Mark 14:28 and 16:7. These two verses, heavily Markan in
nature, are insertions by Mark into the tradition that he inherited.
77
- 77. Robert H. Stein, “A Short Note on Mark XIV.28 and XVI.7,” NTS 20 (1973): 445–52
Papyrus 45, considered the earliest extant manuscript containing parts of Mark (chapters 4-9 and 11-12; among other synoptic gospel texts). P45's Mark section has a relatively close 'statistical relationship' with
Codex Washingtonianus which contains
a unique insertion after Mark 16:14, not known in any other text, named the
the Freer logion - a logion being :a saying attributed to Jesus.”
The “Longer Ending” with the Freer Logion after verse 14 is also in Jerome,
Against Pelagius 2.15.
https://www.ibr-bbr.org/files/bbr/bbr18a04_stein.pdf
Apparently Justin Martyr has a passage in Chapter XLV of
First Apology remarkably similar to the wording of Mk. 16:20
Justin treats Psalm 110 as a Messianic prophecy and states that Ps. 110:2 was fulfilled when Jesus' disciples, going forth from Jerusalem, preached everywhere. Justin's wording is remarkably similar to the wording of Mk. 16:20 and is 'consistent with' Justin's 'use' of a Synoptics-Harmony in which Mark 16:20 was blended with Lk. 24:53.
Bruce Metzger,
A Textual Commentary on the Greek New Testament (Stuttgart, 1971), pp. 122-126 -
Justin Martyr ... in his Apology (i.45) includes five words that occur, in a different sequence, in ver. 20. (
του λογου του ισχυρου ον απο ιερουσαλημ οι αποστολοι αυτου εξελθοντες πανταχου εκηρυξαν).
http://www.bible-researcher.com/endmark.html
F.H.A. Scrivener,
A Plain Introduction to the Criticism of the New Testament, f4th ed. (London: George Bell & Sons, 1894), vol. 2, pp. 337-344.
The earliest objector to vers. 9-20 we know of was Eusebius (
Quaest. ad Marin.), who tells us that they were not εν απασι τοις αντιγραφοις, but after εφοβουντο γαρ that τα εξης are found σπανιως εν τισιν, yet not τα ακριβη: language which Jerome twice echoes and almost exaggerates by saying, 'in raris fertur Evangeliis, omnibus Graeciae libris paene hoc capitulum fine non habentibus.'
http://www.bible-researcher.com/endmark.html
Justin's [alleged] student, Tatian (c. 172), supposedly incorporated almost all of Mark 16:9-20 into his Diatessaron
based on
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_16#E ... ger_Ending
add: Writers in the 200's such as Hippolytus of Rome and the anonymous author of
De Rebaptismate ... 'used' the "Longer Ending."