On the Longer Ending

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
Kunigunde Kreuzerin
Posts: 2110
Joined: Sat Nov 16, 2013 2:19 pm
Location: Leipzig, Germany
Contact:

On the Longer Ending

Post by Kunigunde Kreuzerin »

.
I have two questions about the L.E. As a little introduction I will start with some observations of Richard Carrier.
Instead, the LE appears to be a coherent narrative unit inspired by the NT. It depicts three resurrection appearances, in agreement with John 21:14, which says Jesus appeared three times. And all three appearances have a related narrative structure: all three involve an appearance of Jesus (16:9, 16:12, 16:14), followed by a report or statement of that fact, always to the Disciples (16:10, 16:13, 16:14), which the first two times is met with unbelief (16:11, 16:13), while the third time the Disciples are berated for that unbelief, when Jesus finally appears to them all (16:14).
In the LE (a mere 12 verses), the demonstrative pronoun ekeinos is used five times as a simple substantive ("she," "they," "them"). But Mark never uses ekeinos that way (not once in 666 verses), he always uses it adjectively, or with a definite article, or as a simple demonstrative (altogether 22 times), always using autos as his simple substantive pronoun instead (hundreds of times)
As Joel Marcus observes, the LE looks like "a compressed digest of resurrection appearances narrated in other Gospels" (MNT, p. 1090), so compressed, in fact, it "would not make sense to readers who did not know" the other Gospels and Acts. Indeed.
...
16:17a their powers will be a sign (Acts 2:43, 4:30, 5:12, 14:13)

16:20b and Jesus confirms the word by the signs that followed (Acts 14:3; Heb. 2:2-4)

9 Now when he rose early on the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, from whom he had cast out seven demons. 10 That one (Ἐκείνη) went and told them who had been with him, as they mourned and wept. 11 But when those ones (Κἀκεῖνοι) heard that he was alive and had been seen by her, they would not believe it.

12 After these things he appeared in another form to two of them, as they were walking into the country. 13 And those ones (Κἀκεῖνοι) went back and told the rest, but those ones (ἐκείνοις) did not believe them.

14 Afterward he appeared to the eleven themselves as they were reclining at table, and he rebuked them for their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they had not believed them who saw him after he had risen.

15 And he said to them, “Go into all the world and proclaim the gospel to the whole creation. 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: in my name they will cast out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18 they will pick up serpents with their hands; and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them; they will lay their hands on the sick, and they will recover.” 19 So then the Lord Jesus, after he had spoken to them, was taken up into heaven and sat down at the right hand of God. 20 And those ones (Ἐκεῖνοι) went out and preached everywhere, while the Lord worked with them and confirmed the message by accompanying signs.

I would like to know ...

- Does anyone know whether there are (besides the usual Johannine works) studies on such powerful-signs-theologies in early Christianity?

- Does anyone know Christian literature in which „ekeinos/kakeinos“ is massively used in that way of the L.E.?
User avatar
MrMacSon
Posts: 8798
Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 3:45 pm

Re: On the Longer Ending

Post by MrMacSon »

.
This is interesting. I place slightly different emphases to highlight points that struck me, and that I think also also support Kunigunde's point -
Kunigunde Kreuzerin wrote: Wed Sep 20, 2017 2:09 pm I have two questions about the L.E. As a little introduction I will start with some observations of Richard Carrier --
Instead, the LE appears to be a coherent narrative unit inspired by [some other passages in] the NT, [at least]. It depicts three resurrection appearances, in agreement with John 21:14, which says Jesus appeared three times. And all three appearances have a related narrative structure: all three involve an appearance of Jesus (16:9, 16:12, 16:14), followed by a report or statement of that fact, always to the Disciples (16:10, 16:13, 16:14), which the first two times is met with unbelief (16:11, 16:13), while the third time the Disciples are berated for that unbelief, when Jesus finally appears to them all (16:14).
In the LE (a mere 12 verses), the demonstrative pronoun ekeinos is used five times as a simple substantive ("she," "they," "them"). But Mark never uses ekeinos that way (not once in 666 verses), he always uses it adjectively, or with a definite article, or as a simple demonstrative (altogether 22 times), always using autos as his simple substantive pronoun instead (hundreds of times)
As Joel Marcus observes, the LE looks like "a compressed digest of resurrection appearances narrated in other Gospels" (MNT, p. 1090), so compressed, in fact, it "would not make sense to readers who did not know" the other Gospels and Acts. Indeed.
...
16:17a their powers will be a sign (Acts 2:43, 4:30, 5:12, 14:13)

16:20b and Jesus confirms the word by the signs that followed (Acts 14:3; Heb. 2:2-4)
Last edited by MrMacSon on Thu Sep 21, 2017 1:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Secret Alias
Posts: 18362
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2015 8:47 am

Re: On the Longer Ending

Post by Secret Alias »

The drinking poison thing seems to be influenced by Papias https://books.google.com/books?id=YCxTA ... as&f=false
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Secret Alias
Posts: 18362
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2015 8:47 am

Re: On the Longer Ending

Post by Secret Alias »

You should read Trobisch in German on the formation of the canon. He argues the idea of making a set was part of the final redaction effort.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Paul the Uncertain
Posts: 994
Joined: Fri Apr 21, 2017 6:25 am
Contact:

Re: On the Longer Ending

Post by Paul the Uncertain »

Verses 16:9-20 do not in my opinion form a single coherent unit, but rather comprise two chunks, 16:9-14, a dramatically strong build of three, and 16:15-20, a second progression of three. The first chunk is thoroughly grounded in what has preceded it, while the second is not.

https://uncertaintist.wordpress.com/201 ... -one-unit/

Although the low-level language features in both chunks differ from what's used earlier, that's not unusual for climactic material ("curtain scenes"). It can be especially effective for a character to find a "new voice" at curtain (for example, the long-suffering newly widowed wife in Death of a Salesman). Mark's narrator is a character.

That doesn't resolve the questions of the OP, but it does largely isolate them by chunk, which may help in their analysis. The distinctive pronoun usage is concentrated in 9-14, while the ad hoc signs claims are entirely confined to 15-20.
Kunigunde Kreuzerin
Posts: 2110
Joined: Sat Nov 16, 2013 2:19 pm
Location: Leipzig, Germany
Contact:

Re: On the Longer Ending

Post by Kunigunde Kreuzerin »

MrMacSon wrote: Wed Sep 20, 2017 3:35 pm .
I place slightly different emphases to highlight points that struck me,
I agree. But in this thread I'm primarily not interested in source criticism or in questions of authenticity. It is rather to understand the main interests of the author of the LE if one can take it as an unit.
Kunigunde Kreuzerin
Posts: 2110
Joined: Sat Nov 16, 2013 2:19 pm
Location: Leipzig, Germany
Contact:

Re: On the Longer Ending

Post by Kunigunde Kreuzerin »

Secret Alias wrote: Wed Sep 20, 2017 3:59 pm The drinking poison thing seems to be influenced by Papias https://books.google.com/books?id=YCxTA ... as&f=false
Thanks. Papias was also one of my first thoughts.
Charles Wilson
Posts: 2098
Joined: Thu Apr 03, 2014 8:13 am

Re: On the Longer Ending

Post by Charles Wilson »

Hi KK --

I THOUGHT I had Posted a short note on an aspect of the LE. I checked back later for a possible comment. Secret Alias had Posted what appeared to be an appropritate comment concerning the "...handling of poison". Only, my Post was not there. Did the Post not make it to the Thread? I dunno. Anyway, a shorter repost:

"And these signs will accompany those who believe: in my name they will cast out demons; they will speak in new tongues; they will pick up serpents with their hands; and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them; they will lay their hands on the sick, and they will recover..."

Was there a Ruler or a Caesar who drank poison and lived? Yes: Titus.

Suetonius, 12 Caesars, "Titus":

"...it is believed that when Britannicus drained the fatal draught, Titus, who was reclining at his side, also tasted of the potion and for a long time suffered from an obstinate disorder..."

You can construct a Timeline for the rest of this. Stephan's point is on target: There are other possibilities. *IF* this is about the Caesars, however, this constricts the Timeline for composition of Mark. The "Holy Spirit" is a marker for Domitian, who was Damnatio'd shortly after his death. This places the composition of Mark no earlier than 110-ish and the loss of the ending of Mark, by accident or intentionality, gives the opportunity to somene other than "Mark" to complete the "Empty Tomb" and Resurrection Motif, probably very soon after the composition.

CW
User avatar
Ben C. Smith
Posts: 8994
Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2015 2:18 pm
Location: USA
Contact:

Re: On the Longer Ending

Post by Ben C. Smith »

A few random potential parallels to the longer ending:

Eusebius, History of the Church 3.39.9: That Philip the apostle lived in Hierapolis together with his daughters has been made clear before. But as regards them let it be noted that Papias, their contemporary, mentions a wondrous account that he received from the daughters of Philip. For he recounts a resurrection from the dead in his time, and yet another paradox about Justus who was surnamed Barsabbas, as having drunk a deadly poison and yet, through the grace of the Lord, suffered no harm.

Philip of Side: The aforesaid Papias reported as having received it from the daughters of Philip that Barsabas who is Justus, tested by the unbelievers, drank the venom of a viper in the name of the Christ and was protected unharmed.

Justin Martyr, 1 Apology 45: ...of the strong word which his apostles, having gone out away from Jerusalem, preached everywhere.

Justin Martyr, Dialogue 76.6: And again in other words he said: I give you authority to tread down upon snakes and scorpions and scolopendras, and upon all the power of the enemy.

Luke 10.19: Behold, I have given you authority to tread upon snakes and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing will injure you.

Also, Armenian Manuscript Etchmiadsin 229 (Matenadaran 2374) has a note between Mark 16.8 and 16.9: "Of Ariston the Elder," which puts one in mind of how Papias refers to a certain Aristion in the same breath as a certain John the Elder.
Last edited by Ben C. Smith on Thu Sep 21, 2017 11:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
ΤΙ ΕΣΤΙΝ ΑΛΗΘΕΙΑ
User avatar
Ben C. Smith
Posts: 8994
Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2015 2:18 pm
Location: USA
Contact:

Re: On the Longer Ending

Post by Ben C. Smith »

Speaking of Aristion, I might point out that a certain church order lists an Aristion as the first bishop of Smyrna:

Apostolic Constitutions 7.46: 46 Περὶ δὲ τῶν ὑφ' ἡμῶν χειροτονηθέντων ἐπισκόπων ἐν τῇ ζωῇ τῇ ἡμετέρᾳ γνωρίζομεν ὑμῖν, ὅτι εἰσὶν οὗτοι. Ἱεροσολύμων μὲν Ἰάκωβος ὁ τοῦ Κυρίου ἀδελφός, οὗ τελευτήσαντος δεύτερος Συμεὼν ὁ τοῦ Κλωπᾶ, μεθ' ὃν τρίτος Ἰούδας Ἰακώβου. Καισαρείας δὲ τῆς Παλαιστίνης πρότερον μὲν Ζακχαῖος ὅ ποτε τελώνης, μεθ' ὃν Κορνήλιος καὶ τρίτος Θεόφιλος. Ἀντιοχείας δὲ Εὐόδιος μὲν ὑπ' ἐμοῦ Πέτρου, Ἰγνάτιος δὲ ὑπὸ Παύλου. Τῆς δὲ Ἀλεξανδρέων Ἀννιανὸς πρῶτος ὑπὸ Μάρκου τοῦ εὐαγγελιστοῦ κεχειροτόνηται, δεύτερος δὲ Ἀβίλιος ὑπὸ Λουκᾶ καὶ αὐτοῦ εὐαγγε- λιστοῦ. Τῆς δὲ Ῥωμαίων Ἐκκλησίας Λῖνος μὲν ὁ Κλαυδίας πρῶτος ὑπὸ Παύλου, Κλήμης δὲ μετὰ τὸν Λίνου θάνατον ὑπ' ἐμοῦ Πέτρου δεύτερος κεχειροτόνηται. Τῆς δὲ Ἐφέσου Τιμόθεος μὲν ὑπὸ Παύλου, Ἰωάννης δὲ ὑπ' ἐμοῦ Ἰωάννου. Σμύρνης δὲ Ἀρίστων πρῶτος, μεθ' ὃν Στραταίας ὁ Λώϊδος καὶ τρίτος Ἀρίστων. Περγάμου δὲ Γάϊος καὶ Φιλαδελφείας Δημήτριος ὑπ' ἐμοῦ. Ὑπὸ δὲ Παύλου Λούκιος Κεγχρεῶν καὶ τῆς Κρήτης Τίτος. Διονύσιος δὲ ἐν Ἀθήναις, τῆς δὲ ἐν Φοινίκῃ Τριπόλεως Μαρθόνης. Τῆς δὲ ἐν Φρυγίᾳ Λαοδικείας Ἄρχιππος, Κολασσαέων δὲ Φιλήμων. Βεροίας δὲ τῆς κατὰ Μακεδονίαν Ὀνήσιμος ὁ Φιλήμονος, Κρήσκης δὲ τῶν κατὰ Γαλατίαν Ἐκκλησιῶν. Ἀκύλας δὲ καὶ Νικήτης τῶν κατὰ Ἀσίαν παροικιῶν, Κρίσπος δὲ τῆς κατὰ Αἴγιναν Ἐκκλησίας. Οὗτοι οἱ ὑφ' ἡμῶν ἐμπιστευθέντες τὰς ἐν Κυρίῳ παροικίας, ὧν τῆς διδασκαλίας μνημονεύοντες πάντοτε παραφυλάσσεσθε τοὺς ἡμετέρους λόγους· καὶ εἴη ὁ Κύριος μεθ' ὑμῶν νῦν τε καὶ εἰς ἀτελευτήτους χρόνους, ὡς αὐτὸς εἴρηκεν ἡμῖν μέλλων ἀναλαμβάνεσθαι πρὸς τὸν ἑαυτοῦ Θεὸν καὶ Πατέρα· «Ἰδοὺ γάρ, φησίν, ἐγὼ μεθ' ὑμῶν εἰμι πάσας τὰς ἡμέρας ἕως τῆς συντελείας τοῦ αἰῶνος· ἀμήν.» / 46 Now concerning those bishops which have been ordained in our lifetime, we let you know that they are these: James the bishop of Jerusalem, the brother of our Lord; upon whose death the second was Simeon the son of Cleopas; after whom the third was Judas the son of James. Of Caesarea of Palestine, the first was Zacchaeus, who was once a publican; after whom was Cornelius, and the third Theophilus. Of Antioch, Euodius, ordained by me Peter; and Ignatius by Paul. Of Alexandria, Annianus was the first, ordained by Mark the evangelist; the second Avilius by Luke, who was also an evangelist. Of the church of Rome, Linus the son of Claudia was the first, ordained by Paul; and Clemens, after Linus' death, the second, ordained by me Peter. Of Ephesus, Timothy, ordained by Paul; and John, by me John. Of Smyrna, Aristo the first; after whom Strataeas the son of Lois; and the third Aristo. Of Pergamus, Gaius. Of Philadelphia, Demetrius, by me. Of Cenchrea, Lucius, by Paul. Of Crete, Titus. Of Athens, Dionysius. Of Tripoli in Phoenicia, Marathones. Of Laodicea in Phrygia, Archippus. Of Colossae, Philemon. Of Borea in Macedonia, Onesimus, once the servant of Philemon. Of the churches of Galatia, Crescens. Of the parishes of Asia, Aquila and Nicetas. Of the church of Aeginae, Crispus. These are the bishops who are entrusted by us with the parishes in the Lord; whose doctrine keep always in mind, and observe our words. And may the Lord be with you now, and to endless ages, as Himself said to us when He was about to be taken up to His own God and Father. For says He, Lo, I am with you all the days, until the end of the world. Amen.

Smyrna is in Asia Minor, of course, just like Hierapolis (home to Papias) and Ephesus (possible home to John the Elder). It has been suggested, therefore, that Aristion is the originator of the long ending, and that Papias quoted him, and that an Armenian scribe compared what Papias had quoted from Aristion to the contents of the longer ending. Such a suggestion must probably remain a suggestion.
Last edited by Ben C. Smith on Thu Sep 21, 2017 12:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
ΤΙ ΕΣΤΙΝ ΑΛΗΘΕΙΑ
Post Reply