Marcion and Monarchia

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
lsayre
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Re: Marcion and Monarchia

Post by lsayre »

Secret Alias wrote: Thu Sep 21, 2017 11:20 am And I'd like to take a moment to critique your methodology Giuseppe. When something agrees with your POV THAT'S WHEN YOU OWE IT TO YOURSELF TO BE MORE RIGOROUS in order to determine whether or not you accept the information or the study merely because it agrees with you. There is a surprising amount of information out there that people ignore merely because it goes against their presuppositions. In this case, the question - what is the evidence in favor of supposing that Judaism wasn't as monotheistic or monarchian after the middle of the second century as opposed to before. Philo does not seem to be a strong witness for one absolute 'monarchy' in heaven. Sure he says things which suggest that's the case. But if his logic is taken to the ultimate point viz. where each divine name in the Pentateuch = a separate power then there were two principal powers coming and going having distinct characteristics and operating independent of one another. Not pure monarchianism.
The technical term for this is "confirmation bias".
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John T
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Re: Marcion and Monarchia

Post by John T »

Secret Alias wrote: Thu Sep 21, 2017 5:51 am But where is the evidence for your assertion? Anyone can make up shit.
And you should know, being the expert on the demigod of said crap, i.e., Marcion. :facepalm:
"It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into."...Jonathan Swift
Secret Alias
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Re: Marcion and Monarchia

Post by Secret Alias »

Not following you.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
perseusomega9
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Re: Marcion and Monarchia

Post by perseusomega9 »

John T wrote: Thu Sep 21, 2017 11:31 am
Secret Alias wrote: Thu Sep 21, 2017 5:51 am But where is the evidence for your assertion? Anyone can make up shit.
And you should know, being the expert on the demigod of said crap, i.e., Marcion. :facepalm:
From the guy who believes in every jot and tittle of the church fathers.
The metric to judge if one is a good exegete: the way he/she deals with Barabbas.

Who disagrees with me on this precise point is by definition an idiot.
-Giuseppe
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John T
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Re: Marcion and Monarchia

Post by John T »

perseusomega9 wrote: Thu Sep 21, 2017 1:43 pm
John T wrote: Thu Sep 21, 2017 11:31 am
Secret Alias wrote: Thu Sep 21, 2017 5:51 am But where is the evidence for your assertion? Anyone can make up shit.
And you should know, being the expert on the demigod of said crap, i.e., Marcion. :facepalm:
From the guy who believes in every jot and tittle of the church fathers.
Care to cite an example?

Thought so! :facepalm:
"It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into."...Jonathan Swift
Secret Alias
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Re: Marcion and Monarchia

Post by Secret Alias »

I don't see what you've demonstrated with that stunt.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Giuseppe
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Re: Marcion and Monarchia

Post by Giuseppe »

Another more strong evidence to persuade Secret Alias is this:

Image

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Eudaimonis, the mother of the strategos of the Apollonopolite nome, wrote in a letter: “be sure that I shall pay no attention to God until I get my son back safe”, as if the god in question was directly involved in the war.
(my bold)

This is evidence (and you cannot deny the evidence):

1) that the rebel Jews were identified with the their God as if the latter was a symbol of an entire nation.

2) that their God was considered by Pagans a co-responsible for the dramas of a war.

The presence of monarchianism by Jews is implicit.


Something of similar (where a god is accused of 'crimes against humanity') is reported only about the 'War God' Huitzilopochtli:

Image
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
Giuseppe
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Re: Marcion and Monarchia

Post by Giuseppe »

In addition, even if it is an interpolation (the only words ''called Christ''),
James Brother of Jesus called Christ
...reports the execution of a heretic Jew by Ananus. Even if that James is not Christian (being the son of Damneus), his death is evidence of a increasing intolerance by mainstream Judaism against unorthodox forms of worship towards the 70 CE. The same intolerance shown against the Christians in Acts of Apostles and in the Gospels.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
Secret Alias
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Re: Marcion and Monarchia

Post by Secret Alias »

I truly don't believe you are capable of COMPREHENDING the terminology and conceptual framework here to make relevant or rational arguments.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
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John T
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Re: Marcion and Monarchia

Post by John T »

Secret Alias wrote: Thu Sep 21, 2017 10:50 am This is the weakest sort of evidence. More like wacky interpretation taken earnestly owing to bad judgment. There is no evidence supporting a change in normative Judaism toward monarchianism in the first century owing to the war.
Still, the weakest source of evidence (wacky interpretation) is better than ad hominem attacks.
Let's do better and argue the merits and not hurl personal attacks, shall we?

You are an apologists for Marcion, I got that. But what is your source for what Marcion considered normative Judaism before the war?

As far as my sources, I understand Christians and Jews before the war were still in agreement with Deuteronomy 6:4 and Mark 12:29.

If I'm wrong please correct me but don't insult me in the process.
I am willing to consider your evidence but as soon as you default to personal attacks, I done with the thread just like the others.

Thanks in advance.

John T
"It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into."...Jonathan Swift
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