Rules of Historical Reasoning

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
John2
Posts: 4309
Joined: Fri May 16, 2014 4:42 pm

Re: Rules of Historical Reasoning

Post by John2 »

You know, now that I think about it, as far as the Ebionites are concerned anyway, the parthenos vs. almah question doesn't matter because their Matthew did not have that part. As Epiphanius says in Pan. 30.13.2-6:
Now in what they call a Gospel according to Matthew, though it is not the entire Gospel but is corrupt and mutilated—and they call this thing 'Hebrew'! ...
Then in Pan. 30.13.6 he says:
But the beginning of their Gospel is, 'It came to pass in the days of Herod, king of Judea, in the high-priesthood of Caiaphas, that a certain man, John by name, came baptizing with the baptism of repentance in the river Jordan, and he was said to be of the lineage of Aaron the priest, the son of Zacharias and Elizabeth, and all went out unto him.'
Then in 30.14.3-4 he says:
But these people have something else in mind. They falsify the genealogical tables in Matthew's Gospel and make its opening, as I said, 'It came to pass in the days of Herod, king of Judea, in the high-priesthood of Caiaphas, that a certain man, John by name, came baptizing with the baptism of repentance in the river Jordan' and so on.

This is because they maintain that Jesus is really a man, as I said, but that Christ, who descended in the form of a dove, has entered him—as we have found already in other sects—and been united with him. Christ himself is from God on high, but Jesus is the offspring of a man's seed and a woman.
That their Matthew was "mutilated" is supported by the Stichometry of Nicephorus, where it said to have 2200 lines, which, according to Wikipedia, is "300 lines shorter than Matthew."

http://www.ntcanon.org/Stichometry_of_Nicephorus.shtml

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_the_Hebrews
You know in spite of all you gained, you still have to stand out in the pouring rain.
John2
Posts: 4309
Joined: Fri May 16, 2014 4:42 pm

Re: Rules of Historical Reasoning

Post by John2 »

However, I see that Baldwin notes that there are some issues regarding the accuracy of Nicephorus' list.
At least it can be said that Nicephorus' list gives the impression that the relative lengths of the gospels is reported accurately; Mark's gospel is indeed the shortest, John's is the next shortest, Matthew's is the second longest, and Luke's is the longest ... That is, however, probably the most generous thing that can be said about these numbers from Nicephorus ... in Nicephorus, the relative proportions for the lengths of the gospels is unrealistic, given what we can check from a set of actual, extant texts in manuscript form.

https://books.google.com/books?id=ouJ7f ... es&f=false
In any event, according to Epiphanius, aside from the genealogy, the Ebionites' Matthew did have the first two chapters.
You know in spite of all you gained, you still have to stand out in the pouring rain.
User avatar
Ben C. Smith
Posts: 8994
Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2015 2:18 pm
Location: USA
Contact:

Re: Rules of Historical Reasoning

Post by Ben C. Smith »

John2 wrote: Wed Oct 04, 2017 5:46 pm However, I see that Baldwin notes that there are some issues regarding the accuracy of Nicephorus' list.
At least it can be said that Nicephorus' list gives the impression that the relative lengths of the gospels is reported accurately; Mark's gospel is indeed the shortest, John's is the next shortest, Matthew's is the second longest, and Luke's is the longest ... That is, however, probably the most generous thing that can be said about these numbers from Nicephorus ... in Nicephorus, the relative proportions for the lengths of the gospels is unrealistic, given what we can check from a set of actual, extant texts in manuscript form.

https://books.google.com/books?id=ouJ7f ... es&f=false
In any event, according to Epiphanius, aside from the genealogy, the Ebionites' Matthew did have the first two chapters.
According to the information we have from Epiphanius, the Ebionite gospel of Matthew had some serious overlaps with Luke, as well.
ΤΙ ΕΣΤΙΝ ΑΛΗΘΕΙΑ
iskander
Posts: 2091
Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2015 12:38 pm

Re: Rules of Historical Reasoning

Post by iskander »

John2 wrote: Wed Oct 04, 2017 2:41 pm iskander wrote:
Apparently the word parthenoi denotes the status of young woman who may not be a virgin.
I don't know Greek, but if this is so, have any Christians ever seen Mt. 1:23 that way?

One definition of it here is "maiden," which I suppose could mean a "young woman who may not be a virgin," but I've never seen Mt. 1:23 understood any other way but "virgin."

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/tex ... arqe%2Fnos
Those early followers of Jesus that saw him only as man and believed him to have been the son of Joseph would have believed Mary was a loving wife to her husband .

Matthew 1:25 in the KJV bible reads . Ad he knew her not till she had brought forth her first born son and he called him Jesus. Mathew 1:25 says that Joseph "knew her after the birth of his first child" which is contrary to the Catholic dogma of the perpetual virginity of Mary .The reformed churches accept that Mary was not a perpetual virgin.
https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Matthew-Chapter-1/

Some people said Mary conceived Jesus trough sexual intercourse, according to surah 4 :156
An-Nisaa, Chapter #4, Verse #156
And because of their (Jews) disbelief and uttering against Maryam (Mary السلام عليهما) a grave false charge (that she has committed illegal sexual intercourse);

The divine ' biological ? ' son of God necessitated a virgin pure woman!!! producing a mortal man who was also God
Last edited by iskander on Wed Oct 04, 2017 6:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
John2
Posts: 4309
Joined: Fri May 16, 2014 4:42 pm

Re: Rules of Historical Reasoning

Post by John2 »

Ben wrote:
According to the information we have from Epiphanius, the Ebionite gospel of Matthew had some serious overlaps with Luke, as well.
I wouldn't mind seeing these overlaps. These days I lean towards the Farrer Hypothesis, so I wonder if that could explain any overlaps.
You know in spite of all you gained, you still have to stand out in the pouring rain.
John2
Posts: 4309
Joined: Fri May 16, 2014 4:42 pm

Re: Rules of Historical Reasoning

Post by John2 »

Here we go. Edwards, at least, is barking up the same tree. He does a nice job of defending the accuracy of Epiphanius with respect to the Ebionites' gospel being associated with Matthew and then says on page 114:
The composite evidence points rather persuasively to the conclusion that the Hebrew Gospel is not, as commonly assumed, a compilation of the Synoptics, but rather one of the sources of the Gospel of Luke to which the author alludes in his prologue (Luke 1:1-4). The Hebrew Gospel authored by the apostle Matthew may have been translated into Greek quite early. Jerome mentions such a translation into Greek prior to his own, and given the pervasiveness of Greek in the Mediterranean world this is not at all surprising.

https://books.google.com/books?id=Vs9YX ... us&f=false
You know in spite of all you gained, you still have to stand out in the pouring rain.
John2
Posts: 4309
Joined: Fri May 16, 2014 4:42 pm

Re: Rules of Historical Reasoning

Post by John2 »

And this, of course, would be in keeping with Papias, the first person to mention Matthew, who says in EH 3.39.16:
So then Matthew wrote the oracles in the Hebrew language, and every one interpreted them as he was able.
You know in spite of all you gained, you still have to stand out in the pouring rain.
John2
Posts: 4309
Joined: Fri May 16, 2014 4:42 pm

Re: Rules of Historical Reasoning

Post by John2 »

And before anyone jumps in with the old "oracles means sayings only" argument, I take oracles in the sense it used in Rom. 3:2 and Acts 7:37-38:
Much in every way! First of all, the Jews have been entrusted with the very words [logia] of God.
http://biblehub.com/interlinear/romans/3-2.htm
This is the Moses who told the Israelites, ‘God will raise up for you a prophet like me from your own people.’ He was in the assembly in the wilderness, with the angel who spoke to him on Mount Sinai, and with our ancestors; and he received living words [logia] to pass on to us.
http://biblehub.com/interlinear/acts/7-38.htm
You know in spite of all you gained, you still have to stand out in the pouring rain.
User avatar
Ben C. Smith
Posts: 8994
Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2015 2:18 pm
Location: USA
Contact:

Re: Rules of Historical Reasoning

Post by Ben C. Smith »

John2 wrote: Wed Oct 04, 2017 6:13 pm Ben wrote:
According to the information we have from Epiphanius, the Ebionite gospel of Matthew had some serious overlaps with Luke, as well.
I wouldn't mind seeing these overlaps. These days I lean towards the Farrer Hypothesis, so I wonder if that could explain any overlaps.
Here are the extracts from Epiphanius which I have gathered. I have underlined the bits which parallel Luke only from among the canonical gospels (these are just off the top of my head; there may be other overlaps which I have missed):

1 It happened in the days of Herod, king of Judea, in the high priesthood of Caiaphas, that a certain man, John by name, came baptizing with a baptism of repentance in the Jordan River, he who was said to be from the lineage of Aaron the priest, a child of Zacharias and Elizabeth, and all went out toward him. ....

2 John was baptizing, and Pharisees went out toward him Pharisees and were baptized, and all Jerusalem. And John had clothes of camel hair, and a belt of skin around his loin. And his food was wild honey, whose taste was that of manna, like a cake in oil. ....

3 When the people had been baptized Jesus also came and was baptized by John. And, as he came up out of the water, the heavens were opened, and he saw the Holy Spirit in the form of a dove coming down and going into him. And there was a voice from heaven saying, "You are my beloved Son; in you I am well pleased," and again, "Today I have begotten you [Lucan textual variant]." And straightway a great light shone about the place, which John saw, and then he said, "Who are you, Lord?" And again there was a voice from heaven toward him: "This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased." And then John fell down toward him and said, "I beg you, Lord, you baptize me." But he forbade him, saying, "Allow it, since thus it is proper for all things to be fulfilled." ....

4 There was a certain man, Jesus by name, and he was about thirty years of age, who chose us. And he came to Capernaum and went into the house of Simon, who was called Peter, and opened his mouth and said, "Passing beside the Sea of Tiberias I chose John and James, the sons of Zebedee, and Simon and Andrew, and <lacuna?> Thaddaeus and Simon the Zealot, and Judas Iscariot; and you, Matthew, while you were sitting at the tax booth, I called, and you followed me. I wish, therefore, you to be twelve apostles for a testimony for Israel." ....

5 [And it was announced to him,] "Behold, your mother and your brothers stand outside." [But he answered and said toward them,] "Who are my mother and my brothers?" And he stretched out his hand to the disciples and said, "These are my brothers and mother and sisters, those who do the will of my Father." ....

6 [And he said:] "I came to destroy the sacrifices, and if you should not cease to sacrifice, wrath shall not cease from you." ....

7 [And the disciples said to him,] "Where do you wish that we should prepare for you to eat the Passover?" [And he said toward them,] "I did not desire with desire to eat meat - this Passover - with you, did I?" ....

Last edited by Ben C. Smith on Wed Oct 04, 2017 7:54 pm, edited 2 times in total.
ΤΙ ΕΣΤΙΝ ΑΛΗΘΕΙΑ
User avatar
Ben C. Smith
Posts: 8994
Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2015 2:18 pm
Location: USA
Contact:

Re: Rules of Historical Reasoning

Post by Ben C. Smith »

John2 wrote: Wed Oct 04, 2017 6:45 pm And before anyone jumps in with the old "oracles means sayings only" argument, I take oracles in the sense it used in Rom. 3:2 and Acts 7:37-38:
Much in every way! First of all, the Jews have been entrusted with the very words [logia] of God.
http://biblehub.com/interlinear/romans/3-2.htm
This is the Moses who told the Israelites, ‘God will raise up for you a prophet like me from your own people.’ He was in the assembly in the wilderness, with the angel who spoke to him on Mount Sinai, and with our ancestors; and he received living words [logia] to pass on to us.
http://biblehub.com/interlinear/acts/7-38.htm
I have a few more examples of logia as more than "sayings only" here: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3197&p=70871#p70871.
ΤΙ ΕΣΤΙΝ ΑΛΗΘΕΙΑ
Post Reply