1st & 2nd C writers who missed Christianity

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
StephenGoranson
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Re: 1st & 2nd C writers who missed Christianity

Post by StephenGoranson »

If, for example,
"Sulpicia (late 1st C.) Wrote love poems, almost all lost."
"missed" Christianity, as far as you know, based on what she wrote of what she knew, and what of that--love poems--survived, then so what?
A list might be more interesting and worthwhile if it were compared to other tradents of other individuals and religions. Comparing test cases. For example, how many others comment on other messianic figures mentioned by Josephus? How much do we really, reliably, know about, say, Pythagoras or early Mithraism, and so on?
One collection and commentary that may be more useful is Menahen Stern, Greek and Latin Authors on Jews and Judaism (Jerusalem : Israel Academy of Sciences and Humanities, 1974-1984). There, one can compare which writers (extant) mentioned the then larger and older Judaism (whether called by that relatively late term, ioudiasmos, or by related terms and associations).
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Peter Kirby
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Re: 1st & 2nd C writers who missed Christianity

Post by Peter Kirby »

Paul the Uncertain wrote: Sun Oct 01, 2017 11:18 pm
Peter Kirby wrote: Sat Sep 30, 2017 11:25 pm It's curious that "Jesus Christ" is "never even mentioned." What explanations are there of that? (There's more than one possibility.)
Nearby is your conversation about the inscription of Abercius, estimated 193-216 CE (an epitaph, stating that it was composed during the life of the deceased). It, too, features Christian tropes and even mentions St Paul, but doesn't mention Jesus or Christ by name, so far as reconstruction is now possible.

It seems plausible that this omission is intentional. The inscription solicits prayers for the deceased, not from all who read it, but from those who understand the meaning of the writing. There are also complaints from early Christian writers elsewhere that the sources of their persecution are the name Christian and its unpleasant reputation rather than any actual bad behavior (e.g. Justin, First Apology 4).

Perhaps a style of expression evolved that avoided what would now be called "trigger words," in this case, the brand names of Christian, Christ and possibly the name Jesus in a Gentile context. If so, then the inscription would be an example of it (so far as we can reconstruct). It is also possible that Jesus had a taboo character of its own, being a "name of God." (A special ritual gesture, a nodding of the head when saying the name, is attested as recently as the last century among some Roman Catholics, for instance.)
The above (in the way it’s worded) doesn't quite fit the epistle to Diognetus, which is all over the word "Christian," which is mentioned early and often.
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Re: 1st & 2nd C writers who missed Christianity

Post by Paul the Uncertain »

Peter

I was unwise to address two conversations in two threads in one post in one of the threads.

That said, I'd have thought it was obvious that the possible problem about the word Christian referred to a public monument where the term was absent (so far as we can reconstruct) and not to an ostensibly private letter where the term is used repeatedly.

My bad.

Nevertheless, it remains my view that the term Jesus, missing from both works, may have been subject to a divine name taboo. The term Christ is potentially subject to both difficulties, for some possibly a divine name, title or aspect, for others a human title but also a giveaway when used in a public setting of Christian affiliation.

The existence of circumstances which make all three words "loaded," may encourage the development of a style or habit of speech or writing where the author weighs carefully the costs and benefits of using any of those three words, in both public and private communications.

That care wouldn't preclude using one term liberally when the stated purpose of the private communication is to explain aspects of what the word refers to (see chapter one of the letter). At the same time, I don't see what using either of the other two terms would add to that letter, nor why somebody who wasn't in the habit of using those two words easily and often would find this to be an occasion to let loose.

Please accept my apologies for not better spelling things out in my previous post.
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Re: 1st & 2nd C writers who missed Christianity

Post by Secret Alias »

Michael Stone has a new book on early Christianity as a secret society. I haven't read the book yet but I've read a lot about it. Celsus confirms this suggestion. But this changes the 'appropriateness' of knowledge of the tradition among contemporary witnesses. The closest example I can think of is the Donmeh and whether or not contemporary Turks should have known who was and wasn't a believer in Sabbatai Tzevi. It's not a good argument to make about early Christianity. If Christian associations were secret associations we shouldn't presume a lot of knowledge of the secret association from the beginning.
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Kapyong
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Re: 1st & 2nd C writers who missed Christianity

Post by Kapyong »

Gday all,

Thanks MrMacSon and all for your comments :)
It was in the late second millenium when I first read Remsberg's list of 42 ancient writers silent on Jesus Christ, which was both intriguing and also disappointing because he gave no dates for the writers, or description of the writings.

So I fleshed out his list and originally tried to rate them as who woulda, coulda, shoulda mentioned Jesus - but that was too subjective.

Then Paulkovich expanded the list to 147 !
Also without details, and including rubbish like 1st C. writers.

So recently I tried a better rating system as shown, trying to better judge the chances of a mention.

(Meanwhile my batteries are low, it may be a day or two before I'm recharged to post much.)

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Kapyong
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Re: 1st & 2nd C writers who missed Christianity

Post by Kapyong »

Gday,
Peter Kirby wrote: Sat Sep 30, 2017 11:25 pm It's an interesting text. The c. AD 140 dating isn't secure; it could be first century, or even pre-AD 70 (or, some say, later than AD 140).
That's quite a range, I've added a caveat to the date (50-200?).

You'll recall previously pointing out the obvious problem with making an argument based on what is found/missing in a text, if it's date is based on what is found/missing in it.

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Kapyong
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Re: 1st & 2nd C writers who missed Christianity

Post by Kapyong »

Gday,
StephenGoranson wrote: Mon Oct 02, 2017 1:08 am A list might be more interesting and worthwhile if it were compared to other tradents of other individuals and religions. Comparing test cases.
Indeed.
I've put together a table comparing (and counting) references to Jesus with references to Mani, again chunked by a useful one third century :

After Jesus' deathYears afterAfter Mani's death
(34-66)1-33(278-309)
Alexander of Lycopolis (16); Arnobius (3)
(67-100)
Josephus (1 ?)
34-66(310-342)
Archelaus (97); Athanasius (7)
(101-133)
Tacitus (2); Pliny (1?)
67-100(343-376)
Ephraim (88); Cyril of Jerusalem (18); Gregory of Nyssa (9); Hilary of Poitiers (7); Eusebius (1); Gregory Nazianzen (1)
(134-166)101-133(378-409)
Augustine (154); Jerome (12); John Chrysostom (6); Macarius Magnes (1); Rufinous Tyranius (1)
(167-200)
Celsus (~40); Lucian (1); Galen (2)
134-166(410-442)
Theodoretus (13); Socrates Scholasticus (7); Leo the Great (6)


It's not a perfect comparison, nothing ever is, but it shows a stark contrast.

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Re: 1st & 2nd C writers who missed Christianity

Post by StephenGoranson »

Was selecting Mani a random choice?
Including Augustine, who was a sometime Manichean born at least a century later, but not including Paul, whose life overlapped--is that fair?
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Re: 1st & 2nd C writers who missed Christianity

Post by StephenGoranson »

Secret Alias wrote: "Michael Stone has a new book on early Christianity as a secret society...."
I haven't read this yet. If I recall correctly (I don't have it at hand), in his 1980 book, Scriptures, sects and visions : a profile of Judaism from Ezra to the Jewish revolts, Stone said something related about Essenes: not that the existence of the group was a secret, but that some of their texts, e.g. pesharim (commentaries), were to be read only by those initiated. If so, I add, Josephus, who, despite his exaggerated claims (he didn't have time for full initiation), could mention Judah the Essene without attaching the title "Teacher of Righteousness" to him, as discussed in "Jannaeus, His Brother Absalom, and Judah the Essene"
http://people.duke.edu/~goranson/jannaeus.pdf
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Kapyong
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Re: 1st & 2nd C writers who missed Christianity

Post by Kapyong »

Gday StephenGoranson :)
StephenGoranson wrote: Sat Oct 07, 2017 5:18 am Was selecting Mani a random choice?
I looked for a comparand who :
  • started a new sect,
  • was somewhat near Jesus Christ in time,
  • had an easily searchable name.
I have the sources on disk for easy text searching.
Do you have any other suggestions perhaps ?
I think I'll try Marcion or Valentinus.
StephenGoranson wrote: Sat Oct 07, 2017 5:18 amIncluding Augustine, who was a sometime Manichean born at least a century later, but not including Paul, whose life overlapped--is that fair?
Arguably :)
Paul's references to Jesus Christ contain no historical markers like a date or a place etc.

(Thanks for that reference - I'll have a look.)

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